LERNLUST #24 // The tts Corporate Learning Manifest

What is learning?
What does learning need in the organization?
How do learners find their way to learning?
And what changes through learning?
So: What is the basis of our work?

Over the years, in dialog with customers and colleagues, we have developed twelve premises which we have written up in the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto.

The tts Corporate Learning Manifest

We think these twelve premises are worth discussing!

Our learning architects Claudia Schütze and Johannes Starke are starting the ball rolling. They are dedicating a short LERNLUST podcast episode to each premise as a joint reflection, as an impulse, and perhaps as a starting point for a conversation with our listeners?

Would you like to join in the conversation? We look forward to your message!

Shownotes

Host:
Claudia Schütze, Senior Learning Consultant & Trainerin // LinkedIn

Guest:
Johannes Starke, Product Manager Learning // LinkedIn

You can also find all episodes of our LERNLUST podcast at:

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[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
We at tts Learning Consultants have many years of experience in the area of corporate learning. And everything that has worked well over the years has been further developed by us together with our customers, with our colleagues of course, but always for our learners. And we have written down what, so to speak, forms the cornerstone of our successful work. Now in our tts Corporate Learning Manifesto.

And these twelve theses, which form the basis of our daily work, so to speak, we want to introduce to you in twelve mini-episodes, which you will receive from us almost daily from now on. And after that, it will continue in the normal rhythm of the Lernlust. 

Hello and welcome to a new episode.

And I have Johannes as my guest again. Most of you already know Johannes, from our regular listeners. Johannes Starke is my highly esteemed colleague from the learning area and from product management learning.

Hello Johannes, nice to have you here.

[Johannes Starke]
Hello, dear Claudia. I am always happy to reflect on learning with you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Very nice. Okay, then let's create learning desire in the truest sense of the word. Johannes, you brought up a topic today that is important to us, a topic close to our hearts.

You would like to present something today, namely our tts Corporate Learning Manifesto.

[Johannes Starke]
That sounds big, exactly.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, let's build up our listeners' expectations a little. Johannes, perhaps we could start by asking what exactly this manifesto is and why it exists at all?

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, the tts Learning Manifesto currently consists of twelve premises, as they say, theses in a manifesto that have been developed over many years. Simply by regularly exchanging ideas in our field, of course, about what constitutes good learning for us, what shapes our offerings, how we work with our customers. And we have theorized this a bit, abstracted it from our daily work and written it down in many discussions, and just now we have kneaded and weighed it in the last round at our internal divisional meeting.

And yes, these twelve premises have emerged from that, which we will now go through together in the near future.

[Claudia Schütze]
Very nice. I look forward to it, Johannes. And of course, we'll start with number one today.

And I would like to ask you to introduce what our topic is today.

[Johannes Starke]
The ability to learn is one of the most valuable skills of all people.

[Claudia Schütze]
Wow, that sounds great. Well, say something please.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. I think this first premise, which is why it is at the beginning, shows what our attitude, our view of people at tts Learning Architects is based on: that people learn permanently by definition, moving through the world by learning, opening up the world with permanent learning activity and cannot and do not want to do anything other than learn.

[Claudia Schütze]
I think sometimes we have to argue a little and take up the cudgels for it, right?

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely, exactly. We often hear the response, yes, but we have employees who think it's okay where they are and don't want to learn at all, and then we have others, but we can't generalize about them, who are constantly learning and want to develop further. And the question that arises for me is how people are willing to learn, that's one thing, but how they contribute to the organization with this ability is something completely different.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you, and if we have this attitude of accepting this ability to learn in each and every one of us, then it actually also implies that we have to think a lot about the offers for people, right?

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely, well, I think in the next premises we'll go into a bit more detail about what this is based on, how we design our offers to make use of this incredible treasure that everyone brings with them.

[Claudia Schütze]
And so you mentioned it at the beginning and I believe that it is and must be an attitude of ours and of the people we work with in order for learning to be successful for everyone. This belief that everyone can learn and just does it. And I think we have a tendency, Johannes, we, to somehow assume, just as a general terminology in the industry, that there are people who are better at it and there are other people who are not so good at it.

And also very quickly to somehow divide them into groups and say, yes, this is something for them and for the others it is just nothing. And I think that this is actually an appeal to all people who deal with these topics in the context of corporate learning to really examine their own attitudes, and perhaps also to make our discussion partners in the projects and those at the basis of all our learning support activities.

[Johannes Starke]
That's right, it is our duty and also a very great responsibility that we as learning professionals or as learning structures or learning opportunities responsible for this in the company have to create. It is not up to the employees, I can only recover from Knug, it is up to us to enable learning structures in organizations.

[Claudia Schütze]
And that means, as a consequence, that we really have to deal with the idea that not every learning opportunity is suitable for everyone and just see what the range of potential interested parties for the learning opportunities is and what we assume, but we can also ask them what they bring with them, what they need, and use this input to create truly tailored learning opportunities so that everyone can learn what is needed in the company context with their abilities. And let's not fool ourselves, learning should always happen, will always happen, it does, but in an organizational context, it simply has certain conditions and requirements in terms of goal-orientation and the desire for results, we simply have to say that. Johannes, what comes to mind when it comes to learning ability is what we have already touched on a little bit: everyone can learn within their own abilities.

It also occurs to me that I really would like to appeal to people in organizations that deal with learning and further education, that we don't exclude target groups for certain learning formats from the learning opportunities from the outset with an exclusionary attitude, but that we first assume that the learning opportunities of all people who have something to offer, tailored to the target group, are always suitable for people to develop and learn.

Yes, that is really a very, very important essence for me from this attitude of simply assuming people's ability to learn.

[Johannes Starke]
Do I understand this to mean that you are warning against making assignments like, “You learn this, you learn that, you learn this topic,” but that we should also hand over the organization of learning to the employees in the organization?

[Claudia Schütze]
That too, but above all, it is not the case that we have fixed ideas about learning abilities in different target groups. Let me try to be a bit more precise. Of course we can design training courses for people like you and me, we can design training courses for agile project managers, but we can also design training courses for shop floor employees and people in production and warehousing, and that is precisely what we do.

And what I often experienced in my career were sentences like, no, that won't work for them. And that may not necessarily have addressed the ability to learn, but perhaps sometimes also the learning formats, but I actually wanted to say with that that I don't want to limit ourselves too much from the outset through our beliefs. This has nothing to do with the people for whom we want to provide something good in the organizations.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly. It is much more about the contexts in which they find themselves.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, absolutely. And that is perhaps also a very good word, Johannes, for our first premise, which was about the ability to learn. Thank you so far.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to the second part of our short series of episodes on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. In episode one, we looked at the basic assumption of learning ability. And today, Johannes, welcome. It's great to have you with us again. 

[Johannes Starke]
Hello, Claudia. 

[Claudia Schütze]
Is it about which premise?

[Johannes Starke]
Learning is a lifelong, individual and networked process.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, great. Thanks for mentioning our second premise first. Johannes, I think it has a lot to offer.

Would you like to share a few of your initial thoughts on this with us?

[Johannes Starke]
In fact, this is a direct continuation of the first thesis, where we talked about learning ability as the most valuable ability of all people. There I also mentioned that all people learn permanently, cannot help it from birth to death. But what they bring into the organization is a completely different matter.

That's why it's for life. I think we all know people who get involved in sports clubs, build houses, make flower arrangements, play soccer, whatever. Who are constantly learning and putting a great deal of individual effort into acquiring certain things. That's one thing.

The individual commitment to improve and develop. But then there are also other circles in which learning takes place when I come into contact with other people. And the whole thing plays a major role in life outside the organization in which I work, but in the best of all cases it can also live in the organization.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, and this is an important drive now, because we want to talk about the Corporate Learning Manifesto.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, it was a long introduction. But let's now focus on corporate learning. I think it's important here that we understand and accept.

And I think we have all learned a lot in recent years, in the entire corporate world. There is no such thing as the one right way of learning, but, as I can see when I look at our customers' activities, learning has become extremely diverse, both in terms of individual learning phases and in terms of learning together with colleagues. And also in terms of the individualization of options.

When do I prefer to work on something alone, in peace and quiet? When do I exchange ideas with my colleagues and reflect on what I have done? We often talk about the 70-20-10 model.

I don't think we need go into this in more depth now, which simply means that both formal learning, which often takes place alone or in traditional seminars where there is little exchange, and sensemaking, which involves making sense through exchange with colleagues, must be given equal consideration in learning opportunities. I don't want to get ahead of myself now, because I think we will be addressing this again later with different premises.

The important thing is that it is a combination that can be individual for everyone.

[Claudia Schütze]
And that must, Johannes, must. Must, I think. Because if we look at the premise again word for word, we say that learning is an, period, period, individual process.

And we both know from each other that our learning processes are different for topics that naturally take place in a corporate context for us, which we exchange ideas on. And I think we have reached a point where we take this difference into account with great appreciation, but I also think we have to take it into account even more by simply endeavoring to make this so-called blended learning mix even bigger and more diverse, in order to be able to offer even more individualized needs, without having to say that the costs have to skyrocket to do so.

[Johannes Starke]
I absolutely agree with you.

[Claudia Schütze]
And there is a third component to your premise, and that is the networked process. Would you like to say something about that again, Johannes?

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, I'm just thinking, I think I'll just give an example. During the very relaxed summer vacation, I decided I would like to play the ukulele.

Without any great aspiration, I just want to strum. So, then I thought, how do I do that best without having to book lessons and find a music school? Then I asked around on the internet, on Mastodon and Twitter and such, and there was a very, very sensible suggestion that I should at least invest a very, very small amount to exchange ideas with other people.

I can play the first few chords and stuff like that, and it's fine if I learn it alone with an app, but I need reflection and exchange to discuss whether I have the right posture, whether the whole thing works in the long term without finger pain. Playing the ukulele is perhaps a relatively simple, banal example. This makes it all the more important for more theoretical content or content that is very processually interwoven with workflows that I exchange ideas with other people, whether what I have theoretically acquired here or have practically acquired individually on my own, whether it really makes sense to others, whether something can be improved here.

Reflection.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely. Oh, my Johannes, and that is actually what our huge topic of social learning, of learning together, of peer group learning, is all about. And yes, I can actually share three sentences of experience from the current week, where I did a completely normal online training session, so a formal online learning offer.

And again, the participants said that it was good that we were able to exchange ideas with each other.

[Johannes Starke]
Furthermore, I believe that it is also a form of reward, a form of experience of self-efficacy. If I have acquired something just for myself, then I feel like something is missing. So the exchange, getting feedback that I am on the right track, that I have learned something valuable, is, I believe, especially in the organizational context of work, very, very important.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, I would like to give an example of this as well. Especially when learning programs and learning opportunities are perhaps only introduced into the organization at a later point, so to speak, after work has already started on new processes or on working with new software. Incidentally, this is also a relatively important component. People who have learned from others, so in our estimation, Johannes, social learning, peer learning is actually very, very, very highly regarded.

And yet, of course, if there was no formal learning opportunity before that, there is a risk that small subtleties will be incorporated that are not entirely correct because they were simply adopted from someone who did not know them correctly either. And that's why, after some time, you just said something, self-efficacy, reward, are also important, by the way, to maybe pat yourself on the back at the end of a formal learning opportunity that took place a little later and say, hey, I'm doing almost everything right from what I learned myself and in exchange with others. And now there was just the finishing touches.

So, I think it definitely has an important component.

[Johannes Starke]
And that brings me to the fact that I would like to expand on this even further when I think of a learning journey, which we are keen to develop. And we don't see a learning journey as starting with the formal learning phase and then somehow after a week the formal learning phase is over and then the learning journey is over too, but it is very, very important to us that we take into account how employees approach the topic in the first place. Are they inspired by the work of their colleagues?

Did they run into someone in the hallway who told them about it? That's the very beginning. So that, how I get a topic, has to do very, very often with networking.

And almost more important, I think, is what happens after I have built, applied and proven my skills. How can I contribute, through my work and reflection with my colleagues, to the topic I have learned about becoming established and improving, and to my colleagues learning about how important it is? To do that, I have to engage in dialogue with people.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, Johannes. This idea that we want to offer forums, that we support communities, that we want to enable peer learning formats and simply give people a space and a form for exactly that, in which they can engage in this exchange and learn from each other in a networked learning process.

[Johannes Starke]
At least within the organization, ideally also outside, beyond the organization.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, good point, Johannes, sorry, I hadn't considered that before. Of course, the corporate learning community is actually our very best example of people looking beyond the boundaries of their own organization and saying that we talk about things, opening parenthesis, that we can talk about, closing parenthesis, in exchange with others and learn from each other what can be successfully implemented, but also mistakes that can perhaps be avoided without making them ourselves.

Good point, great, thanks for the addition. Johannes, number two, learning is a lifelong process, we haven't talked that much about that yet, but I think that's explained, more individually, we have addressed that and, above all, we have talked a lot about networking, so a lifelong, individual and networked process. Johannes, thank you for premise number two.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you, Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to our third short episode in our series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes is my guest again. Hello Johannes.

[Johannes Starke]
Hello Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
Johannes, and today we want to talk about premise number three. Would you like to mention it briefly?

[Johannes Starke]
Learning is an active process that results in a change in one's behavior. Yes.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, Johannes, that, yes, I think a little bit and you can start sharing your thoughts on this third premise with us, please.

[Johannes Starke]
That is actually also a premise or a formulation that I myself strongly disagree with, because I believe that, first of all, it is, of course, a question of how behavior is defined. Is behavior, as it is classically seen, I believe, something that can be observed from the outside by third parties, where an expectation can also be attached to how someone should behave? Or can behavior also be something very internal, something that changes or strengthens my attitude and values but is not perceptible to the outside world?

I think, however, that these are things that we now need to define a little more precisely in the organizational context.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, definitely.

[Johannes Starke]
On the one hand, I am a great fan of learning just for myself, to question myself, to feel my own desire to learn, my self-efficacy, but that is not what is desired in an organizational context.

[Claudia Schütze]
And necessary, Johannes. So maybe not only desirable, but also necessary, because I do believe that the reality for learning in organizations is that most of the time there is something that employees need to learn anew, learn differently, execute differently, maybe even approach certain things with different inner attitudes. But in any case, the actual state is not the intended state.

And in this respect, there is always something that has to happen along the way, so to speak. And this way is simply learning in order to acquire the skills that will be needed by the organization in the future.

[Johannes Starke]
Correct. And to incorporate that into our daily work as quickly as possible.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely.

[Johannes Starke]
This is also a very, very important point, why we no longer want to separate learning and working, but rather we actually say that the point is for you to be able to do your work well. And learning supports you in this, but is very, very closely linked to work.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And only then is it truly successful. That's what we're constantly saying.

But Johannes, it's a premise that requires some thought, I think. And it was included in this premise, it is an active process to remember one's own behavior. Would you like to share your thoughts on this active process with us again?

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, an active process, that is actually everything and nothing and also goes in the direction I mentioned earlier. So my personal, inner path as a human being within or outside of the organization, that's debatable. My inner reflection, my self-knowledge, my view of the world is nothing that is now externally recognizable.

But as soon as I actively enter a learning setting in an organization, or a work setting, where I learn something and then do things differently, which in the ideal case are even recognizable or maybe some people can even measure them, so where someone else recognizes that something is going better, then all of this action that I carry out, that I carry out, that my colleagues carry out, that we carry out as a team, and then for years a customer also recognizes that something has changed here, that something has improved here.

At this point, I am reminded of a podcast quote that I once heard from Julia Bangert from DATEV. I really liked it. Maybe I've mentioned it before, that this “what happens on the way” is often very individual, so what activities we do and don't need to be measured in detail.

What is important is when our customers recognize that something has improved.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And you see, and this is funny, exactly what I wanted to say at the same time was and still, yes, we measure success in the end by the result, by the difference that is perceived by the others. But maybe it's good to make the path transparent anyway, and precisely because it's about learning in organizations and we know that learning is not our main job, but rather we tend to do other things to contribute to the success of the company.

But learning is the path we are on to contribute to the company's success. We need learning essentially for the further development of ourselves and others. We will talk about this again in another episode.

But somehow, I think it also makes sense to make the path of the learning process or the learning insights or the steps I take in this active process transparent, to document them, to talk about them and to make them visible. So in what ways? I could think of a great many examples and possibilities right now. But maybe that shouldn't necessarily take place in these little episodes.

But I would find that an important step too, Johannes, for example.

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely, yes. I'm just thinking that the contexts in which people use software, for example, as you said, are also quite different within organizations. And here, too, we have the opportunity to recognize various behavioral changes that have taken place through the learning process and that may lead to conflicts, to reflect on why they have occurred, and to take them into account when designing our learning opportunities, right?

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, I think it's very important. Good idea. You know, Johannes, that's exactly it.

I'm dealing with something and I realize that maybe it will lead to conflicts with the people with whom I'm doing this work in a defined process. And that means that I really have to get everyone involved around the table, to stick with the figure of speech for a moment, or just address it and see how I can resolve the conflict, because maybe others also need to work on their understanding of the process and their behavior. We are not an island in the organizations, but work together with colleagues in a network.

And that's why I think it's a great idea to make it transparent.

[Johannes Starke]
I can think of a specific example of a project. Not too long ago, we were working with a customer to implement new CRM software, including learning opportunities, among other things. And it was, or is, very, very important to us that the various participants have different perspectives on what this software can do, how it can make their work better, and how it can make the work of the participants better.

It is extremely diverse. And the various parties have very different requirements in terms of what the software has to provide them with, which the other colleagues from other departments also have to input so that the software can be used by them and is a success. And it was very, very important to us that these different ways of working, different behaviors and different requirements of the various parties are reflected upon together in order to achieve understanding.

If I behave in a certain way, it has a serious impact on the other colleagues, who I often don't even notice in my daily work.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. Johannes, you speak from the heart. Many, many, many years ago, we were already talking about cross-role training in our formal learning programs.

So it's kind of old-school speak, but exactly what you just described is my thing, the old-school speak, where we just tried to... I think all listeners know by now that my context is more of an IT training topic and embedded in the processes, and to get everyone involved in the process in a training room, to go through the process, and that the roles understand each other, what is changing, what do I put in, what do I give out, what can I work well with, what can I not work well with, what can others not work well with at all when I give it out, and to think together about how we can improve the collaboration, which in the end is only supported by software, and try to optimize and improve it in small details, maybe first and then optimize, so that everyone involved understands why we are doing this, what my part is and what is improving overall.

So this is really close to my heart. Thank you for including this in your considerations.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, thank you very much for our joint reflection on this. You almost led us on to our next point.

[Claudia Schütze]
Great, and with that, the red carpet is being rolled out for the next topic, but for today, thank you very much for premise number three. Thank you, Johannes. 

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to the next episode of our short series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes, it's great to have you back. Hello.

And Johannes, today we are discussing the fourth premise. What is it?

[Johannes Starke]
Learning success improves when learners reflect on their learning processes.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, that's an immediate yes, from the bottom of my heart. Okay, Johannes, what are you concerned with when you think about reflecting on learning processes?

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, learning is, on the one hand, of course, developing and applying skills in a particular field, on a particular topic, and thereby changing one's own behavior. But of course also learning to learn itself, to learn more and more, to become aware. What is the best way for me to learn?

How, what works for me? Which learning opportunities should I take advantage of? How do I organize my learning in a work context?

When do I exchange ideas with others? When do I withdraw and work? In theory, all of this needs space, time, support, and urgently needs peers with whom I can reflect together.

[Claudia Schütze]
And instructions, Johannes, perhaps?

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, if there are experts who can give good advice, who can observe me, who can coach me, then certainly also instruction. So how do we do it? There are, of course, the classic evaluation approaches.

There are forms of, you know much more about this than I do, Claudia, agile learning coaching, which we can use. There are forms of learning circles where we all reflect together and support each other and give each other hints on how we can better achieve our own learning goals, which also enable a form of, as I mentioned recently, a certain form of self-efficacy, that I realize that I am becoming more competent through my learning. I also get that reflected by others.

This is made possible, if I think of user adoption concepts, by the fact that we also look at key figures. This is perfectly legitimate, because learning is always embedded in the business strategy of the organization. And if we all learn nicely, but nothing changes for the business processes, then we learners should definitely perceive this and perhaps reflect on it for ourselves.

Well, it's a huge field. But in any case, it starts with me getting the space, the tools, the opportunities, the peers, the partners to feel for myself when and how I learn well.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And maybe also to dig up a bit of that sense of purpose again. Of course I can say it's nice to look at my own learning.

But of course, in an organizational context, Johannes, there are things that we might want to learn sometimes when we apply for a new role, further qualify ourselves, or want to take on new tasks or responsibilities. Then it is very much characterized by wanting to, but relatively often it is also characterized by having to. And that means there is a certain pressure to succeed.

Maybe I would just call it that or even make a real issue of it. In organizations, learning is also subject to pressure to succeed. And the more successful and perhaps the faster I am in a new subject area, the faster I can apply things and apply them successfully, the sooner I can perhaps devote myself to new topics again, which will most certainly have something to do with learning again.

But putting it in inverted commas also pays off my learning investment, because my application in my daily work hopefully enables me to work faster, more efficiently, to collaborate better, to find information more easily, to exchange information more easily, and so on. And that is why I believe that we all have an extremely important duty to reflect on our learning and, above all, a necessity to find out what learning settings make me more successful and what learning settings I have tended to be less successful with in my learning life so far. And I believe that doing something like this is something that everyone really benefits from.

However, I also believe, Johannes, and in our preliminary discussion we naturally also exchanged a few thoughts on this topic, that people are at different stages in terms of reflecting on their learning or their learning processes. And that is something that is very close to my heart. You also touched on it briefly just now, with this learning coaching, that I would also like to take up the cudgels for the fact that, in addition to content-based learning opportunities, we would also like to share opportunities that enable people to look at their own learning processes.

And as I said, it can also lead to a pat on the back and the saying of, hey, I already understand what the most efficient and best learning settings are for me to achieve good results, to achieve good results quickly. And maybe it is also a suggestion and an inspiration to look at it in the first place and maybe be relatively surprised why certain forms of learning have not brought me the success in the past that they should have, because everyone else has been successful with them. Well, and I think that in a private context, looking at it is perhaps more of a fun-driven or pleasure-driven thing, but in an organizational context, I think it's almost a necessity. I would like to take up the cudgels for companies to be much more willing to make small investments to support their employees in this.

[Johannes Starke]
It is very important to me that this must be a deeply individual and personal process, supported by human exchange. And I mention this because I see a tendency for more and more learning platforms to work with data analytics and claim that learning can be expressed and improved through key figures, through learning paths that are analyzed, through times, through click speeds, and so on and so forth. And I am not only skeptical about this, but I also have a concern that this could lead to a form of surveillance.

Therefore, leave the learner data with the learners and let them decide for themselves when they want to open up and reflect on their learning process together with their peers.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, exciting. That's an interesting point, Johannes. I hadn't actually thought that far ahead yet.

That is actually a topic that is not yet very present on my map. So thank you for this enrichment with the just added information. But I think we have actually shown a very good reason why this reflection on learning processes is so important to us.

Because we simply believe that this is a basis for further development, for improvement and for the faster acquisition of more and more new topics. That is what we are all currently concerned with and why it must and should therefore also be given a place.

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely.

[Claudia Schütze]
Great. Good, Johannes, then that was our mini-episode on the topic of improving learning success through reflection on learning processes. Johannes, thank you very much for this fourth premise.

[Johannes Starke]
It was a pleasure. Thank you, Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
Thank you. 

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to the next little episode of our tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. 
Welcome Johannes, great to have you back.

[Johannes Starke]
Hello Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
And today we are discussing premise number 5. Johannes, would you mind briefly introducing this premise, please?

[Johannes Starke]
Of course, I'm already used to it. Learning welcomes error, because it is a source of learning processes.

[Claudia Schütze]
Very nice. I will now simply share with you, Johannes, what I shared with you earlier in our preliminary talk. What immediately comes to mind is a little cartoon in which there is a little man for error and a little man for learning processes.

And error bypasses learning processes, while learning processes say, hello error, nice to have you here.

[Johannes Starke]
I would like to add something. The error puts the learning process in jeopardy. The learning process falls over, gets up again and embraces the error because it has learned how fragile it is.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, great. And above all, get up, that's important. Okay, so that's a bit of our spoken visual interpretation of this fifth premise.

And Johannes, now a little seriousness is required. Please be so kind as to tell us what you mean by welcoming error.

[Johannes Starke]
Especially in, I am now afraid to use the word WUKA or something like that, but in our times, where we have not tested the best practice for all conceivable future scenarios in our heads, written it down, we constantly encounter situations where there is simply no best, clear, right way, but we have to try something. And sometimes we make a mistake and take the wrong path, and we recognize that the path was wrong for one reason or another, and we learn from it and can then take the other path. That is the kind of mistake that welcomes learning.

Mistakes are different.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, would you mind explaining the difference that goes through your mind for all of us?

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, so I'm triggered by this talk of a better error culture, which is often brought up in many organizations. And I think we should look at that with a certain amount of skepticism. We don't want mistakes to be made because, for mistakes, we actually know how something has to be done correctly.

But then someone does it wrong because they haven't read the manual, because they were tired, inattentive, because they want to sabotage. All these are mistakes for me. We don't want them.

We also don't want a pilot to make a mistake and press the wrong button and cause the plane to crash.

[Claudia Schütze]
No, we don't want that.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, but these are all the kinds of points that can be easily and cleanly trained and internalized through processes, and then they should be carried out as we have learned them. But then there are these uncertain, complex things, the emergent solutions that only arise from trying things out. And that is precisely what learning processes are.

Ultimately, this is subsumed under a good work culture, because work consists of trying things out and reflecting on them. Last time, we had reflection as our central topic and then drawing insights from it.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, but still, I think it's a bit bigger because it also needs a framework that values precisely this trial and error and allows that not the one right, finished solution comes out at the end, but that we have the best possible solution at the moment and try it. And if that doesn't lead to the goal either, then we really allow and appreciate the work we have invested and immediately look for the next solution, take the next, the next step to simply approach a next good solution. And I think that is also an understanding of what needs to be gained from working and interacting with each other, that it may be that what I say today and sell as the best possible solution will no longer be the best possible solution tomorrow, because I have new insights and have further developed this solution.

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely, yes. That points very, very strongly to our next premise. But I would perhaps like to add one more thing, because I think it often leads to problems due to certain structures in organizations.

We have people who are very closely involved in the operational side of things, who may make a great many mistakes and learn from them all the time, but then, often at the management level, we also have people who are rather more removed from the operational side of things, who may not even be aware of the constant learning process that takes place at the operational level and the lessons learned from it.

How can we ensure that learning from each other takes place here, thanks to the mistakes made by those working in operations? I think that this is another challenge that we should take into account.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, and I don't know in which small episode we've already talked about this, but Johannes, it's another framework that says, talk about it, talk about the learning process. Yes, we have talked about making learning processes transparent. Talk about it, talk about the things, the steps you have taken, talk about what was successful, talk about what was not successful and talk in the end, when you look back on the path, about what the result is.

I think I'll just mention it again now. I think it is certainly known to all our listeners, this learning out loud, so really using the public of my organization to share my learning insights. And I think that, in addition to the result, the path can also be included.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, exactly. And about Learning out loud is an example, but also about communities and stuff.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely.

[Johannes Starke]
I mean, some companies go as far as so-called Fuck-up Nights, where I then ask myself, is that a bit too far? Do we have to celebrate the fact that people have made mistakes? Or is it just something very, very, very normal, in quotation marks, something valuable that needs to be included and taken into account?

[Claudia Schütze]
But I think that if it were so normal, Johannes, then it wouldn't need to be celebrated. 

[Johannes Starke]
I know that. 

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, but it is being celebrated because I believe that it is not yet accepted as normal for us to make mistakes, to fail.

So it often goes one size bigger, that we really fail with the tasks we have set ourselves. And that's part of the culture, the corporate culture, of dealing with each other, accepting that. And that a person is no worse for it, but perhaps even a much more valuable person for the lessons he or she has learned.

And that's why I believe that as long as it is not yet anchored in the, I don't know, I don't want to say DNA of the organization, but as long as it is not yet part of our culture, of the way we deal with each other in companies and organizations, I believe that it needs the stage so that it simply enters the consciousness of the organization through constant exposure.

[Johannes Starke]
Oh, I have a lot of LinkedIn stories from hell. Yes, with the public celebration of failure. Sometimes exaggerated.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, well, let's say that wasn't what I had in mind when I talked about it now. But the basic idea in it, I actually find extremely valuable and meaningful.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes.

[Claudia Schütze]
Right, Johannes, that was it for premise number 5. 
Johannes, thank you very much for the small mistake that fits the learning process.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you, Claudia. Thank you, error.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to episode 6 of our little series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. As before, Johannes, it's great to have you here.

[Johannes Starke]
Pleased to meet you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello. Johannes, today we want to talk about premise number 6. Would you mind sharing it with us?

[Johannes Starke]
Learning requires opportunities to try things out in a safe environment.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, so I think I have some ideas, but you are my interview guest, dear Johannes. What do you think of safe trial ideas? Why are they important?

[Johannes Starke]
A very, very, very, very broad field. In our last premise, we already talked about welcoming error. So we need opportunities to learn from errors, to try things that are new to us, to try out different approaches.

And ideally, without an operation going wrong or an airplane crashing, but yes, the net and double bottom, where we can also simulate the learning process in a certain way, sounds too devaluing, but where we can enter the learning process thanks to a simulation of a context. For example, that would be one possibility for safe trial and error, or also through evaluation mechanisms in the organization that don't immediately punish me for a failed experiment. All of that and certainly much more are possibilities for safe trial and error.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And security also means security in the moment, because I believe that speaking and saying it provides a secure framework, and yet afterwards saying, yes, but he didn't do that really well, that's just not the security we want. 

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly.

[Claudia Schütze]
And I think that this is also a cultural issue, Johannes. And in this respect, yes, it is once again a reminder that it is not only about the subject matter that is to be learned in the organizational context, but that the learning culture must also provide a framework for it. And for example, what we are talking about at the moment, the possibilities of safe trial and error.

How do I create a sense of security among employees?

[Johannes Starke]
You have already addressed it, actually. And I have already mentioned that there is no blaming when things fail or when I have made a decision that turns out to be wrong in retrospect, but that this is seen as an opportunity through joint reflection, through sharing the wrong path and through jointly exploring a better path. This is certainly a very, very important thing.

But then there are also very, very pragmatic, concrete measures to get learners out of the danger zone. We don't learn well under stress, under the fear of destroying something, of making mistakes. And that's why we should always consider where we learn from a direct confrontation with a situation and where it might be good to create a simulation first.

So, for example, not in the – you deal a lot with IT simulations – not directly learning in the live system, but in a test system or perhaps even, if there is no test system, in a simulated interface in which I can first orient myself and enter data and see how the system reacts. All these are ways to eliminate danger. Nevertheless, wherever it is possible to learn by being directly involved in the work without any danger, we should favor that.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And maybe sometimes it's a mixture of the two, Johannes. You know, our Fridays for Learning are coming to mind.

So a peer learning format, which we have certainly already cited one time or another in our podcast episodes, where employees offer something or also invite people to test and try something together. And that is, firstly, a safe space in which this can happen. And secondly, there is no expectation that the person initiating a topic has to be an expert on it, but that we try things out together, and that has something of an almost real context, but still in a protected environment.

People can also try things out for themselves, for example on a stage, in inverted commas, that they might not otherwise have so often at their disposal, to try out the tools. How do I actually go about integrating a lot of different tools into an online session? How do I do that?

And everyone is willing when I'm there, and they say I can participate in the content, but above all I can also be supportive for the person who is trying something out in such an authentic situation with benevolent fellow human beings..

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, it's really great that you mentioned that, that the open learning spaces where everyone can contribute, that's why I think we're both such big fans of BarCamps or Open Spaces, because they create a very similar climate. Sometimes I like to take on the role of critic, which is why I would also like to mention that, on the other hand, we should not harbor the illusion that such spaces can simply be opened up and declared secure by decree. If certain hierarchies and certain functions are present in a space that is supposed to provide a safe environment for experimentation, then there is often the danger, if we are not aware of this and actively reflect on it and address it, that these spaces are only seemingly safe, but ultimately not.

[Claudia Schütze]
But, Johannes, it's good that you mentioned it, but that's perhaps only a small facet of this topic, but I can address all of this and there are good approaches in moderation techniques and in many ideas for conducting workshops to, so to speak, put this animal, which is sitting in there, so to speak, in the middle and make it discussable. And we have to do that, because otherwise we won't achieve certainty.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, I trust in your many years of experience in moderating, Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
You are welcome to benefit from it if you need it. Yes, Johannes, have we briefly illuminated this premise with that? Learning needs opportunities to try things out safely.

[Johannes Starke]
It is an incredibly broad and complex topic, but I think we have provided a good framework for it as part of our tts Corporate Learning Manifesto presentation.

[Claudia Schütze]
Well, then I would say thank you very much for premise number 6 today, Johannes.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you and thank you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to another short episode from our mini-series, the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes, it's great to have you back. Hello.

[Johannes Starke]
Hello, dear Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
And Johannes, we want to talk about premise number 7 today. What exactly is this premise?

[Johannes Starke]
Learning in context helps people to develop skills more sustainably than learning for a specific purpose.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, I'm with you all the way. But Johannes, what, yes exactly, what is it that is different when we learn in context than when we learn in advance? And what is one and what is the other?

Let's delve into this a little bit.

[Johannes Starke]
And when I think about it now, I think that this has been one of the fundamental pillars of our work at tts for many, many years, ever since we started when we were still working mainly with traditional web-based training or classroom training. Times have also changed a bit since then. We have always taken care to modularize offers and to get them transferred and applied as quickly as possible.

And even back then, when we created large web-based training courses or concepts for classroom training, we always tried to at least simulate a context if it wasn't there. A simulation, as we briefly touched on in the last premise, on the one hand through a framework, through a framework scenario that we introduce so that everyone immediately knows what type of application I am in now, what context I am in now. But then also a simulation of the technical context, for example, that I have a training system or that I have simulated the interface so that it looks like the real thing and I am not just looking at something abstract, but can really enter into the context and actively operate in this simulated context.

This is the issue that has been with us for many, many years, if not decades. Now, with the pandemic and the restrictions in recent years, we have inevitably been thrust into the real context more often, because we no longer had the option of conducting these two or three face-to-face seminars in a row, but rather we trained in many small online sessions, provided information, enabled digital learning opportunities that people can access when they need them, we automatically became more integrated into people's work processes.
This means that you don't learn something that you can't apply for another six months because you only went to a seminar and then the moment when you need it comes again sometime, but you can access it when you need it and then apply it directly. Or after a two-hour online workshop, I can go back to my work, apply it, reflect on it, and then come back to the next online workshop the next day or in two days and report directly on how it felt to apply the skills I had built up, what happened then, and reflect on that together with my peers. So we have permanent, iterative learning loops through this fragmentation of the learning process.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And it is precisely this technology, the technologies that we use today for our learning opportunities, that makes it safe within the framework of what is accepted today, and perhaps it must also be said that it is also possible to integrate these smaller time units, smaller learning units, into daily work more than was previously the case with the relatively long classroom training sessions that were perceived as very normal. And in this respect, I believe that this interposition into the work context is something that is very, very good, that these possibilities are now seen as relatively self-evident. And the next thing is that this learning on tap simply becomes a bit more obsolete by definition, because there are sometimes only a few minutes between the time when I work on a learning topic and the time when I can apply it, because I can actually open my computer and look up things in my real system.

Of course I shouldn't book anything while I'm still in the training and development phase, but I can look. I can compare certain things with what is perhaps being presented to me in the more theoretical learning unit and I can immediately make this transfer, which is also a feedback from the experiences of the last two years, that the participants find this to be really, really valuable. And so that this learning for stockpiling no longer really has to take place, because we can use other settings as accepted settings in the meantime.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. And that's even possible, which has another advantage, that certain things that we used to have to learn out of necessity, because at some point I was at a loss and didn't know what to do, so I must have learned it somehow before, that thanks to technical possibilities like performance support, context recognition, where am I in the digital process right now and so on, that certain things that maybe only happen once a year or only happen when a serious incident occurs or something like that, that I no longer have to learn and that I can really concentrate on what the formal basics, the theoretical basics are, on which I focus my energy and everything else that could happen to me, I get delivered at the moment I need it, but I no longer have to learn. You can learn that when it happens more often, on the side.

That is more of an incidental, unintended learning experience. But we don't focus our energy on that, even when we are creating learning opportunities.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And we have already addressed it in other of these short episodes and there too, my thought comes up again, how do I manage it so that I can, in the moment when I have a learning need, maybe it is more of a need for help, as you just put it so nicely, that maybe it is not even learning in the first necessity, but it is first of all a help that I need and then, by chance, it can become learning.

But I also consciously create a lot of opportunities and contexts to get these offers of help or, respectively, learning opportunities. And that brings me back to communities and it brings me back to peers, because these are people who can simply help me in my moment of need and enable me to work on a topic, solve a problem and thus indirectly help me to facilitate learning.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. I would like to share another wish, something I would like to do. On my last vacation, I discovered geocaching with my family, and there are also special caches that are more like a kind of city rally, where I am sent to certain positions and then learn something historical about the place or sharpen my senses to discover something that I might not have discovered without the impulse.

Something very extremely context-based. I would also like to try that with our customers, be it an onboarding on the factory premises in a kind of geocaching.

[Claudia Schütze]
Cool idea and something I've already expressed as a thought in an earlier episode. Our cross-role training sessions, which have been in our minds for a very long time and of course also carried out, when it comes to software contexts like this. Why do you have to get everyone together in one room or in a virtual room, you can do that.

But you can also combine that with a tour of the premises, for example. Then you can make it a bit more true to life. Then you can actually scan work permits at the place where they are actually located, and then it is a training system, but I just scan them in the way that colleagues on site actually do, and I select something so that work can be done.

And I get feedback that it all happens in real contexts. I could imagine that being really exciting, by the way.

[Johannes Starke]
I think we're in for a lot in the future when I think about augmented reality, which is still a bit clunky these days. But there are also technologically interesting solutions here. For example, you once talked to your esteemed former colleague Pascal Guderian about workplace learning, i.e. learning directly at the machine when I am at the machine, so that I can then access it directly on my mobile device. What were the experiences of the other colleagues?

One colleague writes that when the red light is on, a kick to the machine is better than an official way out of the manual. Such things, where we benefit from each other's contexts. I think there is still a lot where we can create exciting learning opportunities.

[Claudia Schütze]
That's right. And Pascal had many such examples in the preliminary discussion for this podcast episode. So maybe that's another suggestion for you that you haven't heard.

We once talked to Pascal Guderian about people who don't have a desk as their workplace. And how do they actually get help with the daily demands and problem contexts they face in their work? And Johannes, it's good that you brought that up.

Super exciting. And I think, in terms of user-generated content, that's what it's all about. And it arises in the context of work and can lead to learning opportunities.

And maybe we often want it to be too smooth, too polished, too curated, too shiny. And maybe sometimes the level below is enough. But it does create the opportunity for real support in a real context.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly.

[Claudia Schütze]
Well, Johannes, I think that covers some of our thoughts on premise number 7, learning in context. And I'd like to thank you all very much for coming today.

[Johannes Starke]
I also say thank you for today. Ciao.

[Claudia Schütze]
Thank you, Johannes. 

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to another short episode in our series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes, it's great to have you back.

[Johannes Starke]
I'm happy to meet you, Claudia. Hello.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello. Johannes, we are at premise number 8 today and could we please call this premise to start with.

[Johannes Starke]
Taking responsibility for organizing the learning process promotes learning success.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, well, quite a few things come to mind, but Johannes, I'll let you go first. What are your thoughts on this design, on this self-responsible design?

[Johannes Starke]
Here, too, I think we have different levels. Levels that have more to do with the learning culture in the organization. Levels that have to do with the practical design, the offer, the chosen learning formats, and access to the learning formats.

Where do we start?

[Claudia Schütze]
Choose what you want to start with.

[Johannes Starke]
Perhaps with something very practical. We had already said in one of the earlier episodes that people learn differently and are in different contexts. And there is the scattergun approach, which is becoming less and less effective, where somehow all colleagues in the company receive the same offer.

Everyone is taken out of their work context for two days and put into a seminar room, and then they may not be able to apply what they have learned for another six months. Perhaps this was the way learning used to be in organizations. But we have long since outgrown that.

Rather, we should ensure that people can choose what they need and what they believe will help them learn what they need as independently as possible at the moment they need it, based on their previous knowledge, their options and the conditions they find themselves in. And that has a great many, a great many aspects. As I said, these are learning formats that we may offer in different ways.

This is a conscious design of the infrastructure. But there are also things like, how is it seen when I sit at the computer and watch a video? Or am I even allowed to get my smartphone when I'm on the shop floor and watch something there?

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely.

Or that is why we have to allow for flexibility in the structuring of our offers, in the offer itself, where the self-responsible design of the learning process is handed over to the individual learners, but also in such a way that it does not lead to conflicts here, or to as few conflicts as possible. And here we are on the topic of learning culture and the general structures in which learning takes place in the organization.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. I thought I'd be told the role again, yes, but to say the learning culture. You've already brought it up yourself.

Yes, Johannes, I think that's a super important point right now. And on the other hand, there is also the necessity that we, as people who design or provide learning opportunities, also provide this colorful bouquet of options from which learners can choose what seems appropriate to them at this moment on their learning journey. And that simply also requires that there is more than just this one story, namely classroom training, which I can choose and which offers me a broader range of options at the moment, and perhaps also good coaching, good learning coaching, to help me find the right offers for my learning preferences and skills on my learning path towards an agreed and communicated learning goal.

And that is why I believe that coaching is a very valuable tool here.

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely. I think it's important that you pointed this out again, because personal responsibility in the design of the learning process must not be confused with, I'll put 3,000 offers in the LMS for you and activate a LinkedIn learning access for you and now get on with it. And if you don't learn what you need, then you're bad employees.

That would be the worst possible approach. That would be a complete individualization, which is not the point of it all, but these spaces, this coaching, this support, the appreciation, the importance of learning, that has to be there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely. And it is important that, well, I think it is important to address the issue that Johannes mentioned at the end, that it is really about making these offers within a defined framework and also offering support and guidance to enable this design to be achieved in a targeted manner.

[Johannes Starke]
Sometimes I tend to say, leave the learners alone, they'll get what they need. I'm still convinced of that, but nevertheless, there is such a big change in many companies, towards full trust that this will happen and away from the snubbing when a piece falls off the line because the person first had to learn how to screw it together. Well, I'm exaggerating now, that there is definitely still a long way to go before we get a completely self-responsible design that no longer needs any framing.

[Claudia Schütze]
And yet, and this is part of this premise, in the end, we say that taking responsibility for the design of the learning process promotes learning success. And that is precisely what we are concerned with. It is a means to an end, which we want to promote, accompany, support, so to speak, with the right ideas, in order to ultimately enable employees in the organizations to achieve the desired personal or necessary result more quickly and easily for their required learning success.

And that, I think, is also important to me. We don't want to choose this self-responsibility for the sake of self-responsibility, or choose the design for the sake of the design, but the whole thing also has a purpose.

[Johannes Starke]
It certainly depends very much on the subject, on the learning topic. When you said “quickly and easily”, I pricked up my ears, because I believe that there are definitely certain learning topics, learning fields, where friction, working through something, which can also be exhausting and heated in a positive sense, is definitely sustainable and ensures lasting learning success. So not all topics should be quickly accessible and applicable in a bite-sized way, but sometimes a certain conflict is needed.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, I'm completely with you, Johannes. And it's not for nothing that we've always said that you have to build in error scenarios, for example in practice contexts. You're absolutely right.

In the end, however, it still leads to learning success and maybe even to a very satisfying learning success afterwards, because I've overcome a few stumbling blocks. And maybe it's still faster because more sustainable and deeper learning insights are gained than if I just try to learn something straightforward from theory, but have to learn it ten times because I keep forgetting it because I haven't worked on it. Exactly.

[Claudia Schütze]
Great. Good, Johannes, that was a brief insight into our premise number eight, the self-responsible design of a learning process and our idea that this is necessary to promote learning success. Thank you very much.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you, dear Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to our next little episode from our mini-series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto.

Welcome Johannes, it's great to have you back. Today we are talking about premise number 9.

Johannes, what is the premise?

[Johannes Starke]
Effective learning opportunities take into account the circumstances and needs of learners and all other stakeholders.

[Claudia Schütze]
Sounds good, but it's actually a matter of course, isn't it?

[Johannes Starke]
Oh yes, it would be nice.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, then say two sentences about it.

[Johannes Starke]
I don't know how many times I've been in rooms at project kick-offs where there were a lot of people from the management level, project managers, team leaders, and they talked about how their employees in the operational areas want to learn, would like to learn, can learn, and what learning preferences they have. And I always wonder why we don't bring in people who are actually really affected. It happens again and again, but it's far too rare.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. Johannes, you speak so deeply from my heart. What do we have in our training needs assessments, which we have always, always, always done? Or maybe it's called differently now, the method we use.

But we have always talked about the learners. People who think they know what learners need have provided answers. And I think it is so much more important that we ask the people themselves.

Not just about the what. So, what do you need? Which topics are relevant for you?

Because there are always more experienced people in the roles we train, for the functions, for the areas we train. And you can use them, for example, to define learning framework topics. And you can, and in any case everyone can answer this.

How would you like to learn? What makes sense for you? What is feasible?

What do you enjoy? And anyone can answer that question.

[Johannes Starke]
That's one thing. And it's about what you enjoy. What do you still want to achieve?

What can you do? What do you need to do your work in a way that really makes sense? Or what do you just not accept because it doesn't address your needs at all?

And also the topic of skills. I mentioned the framework conditions. I'm just thinking, where does it crunch in operational activities?
What is available in theory but cannot be used in practice because the network is not fast enough or because the workflows do not allow it? Whatever. What do those affected know best?

And if I can continue with the topic of those affected right away. After all, it goes beyond the learners. In this context, those involved also include IT, for example, or external subject matter experts.

In all areas of the company. Everyone who can contribute in any way to ensuring that the field in which learning is to take place is successful and runs as it should, should be involved.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And I think, I believe, we had in our preliminary discussion, Johannes, we had actually considered whether to use the term stakeholders, because of course it immediately brings up groups in our minds, such as the works council must be asked. Perhaps the providers of learning opportunities must be consulted and, and, and.

That's all true. But in the end we decided that it was better to call them all participants, because it is perhaps more geared towards the addressees of the learning opportunities.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly. It is deliberately something larger and more abstract. Those involved could theoretically also be people who previously did not know that they had any relevance to the topic, but who discovered this while exploring the learning topic.

[Claudia Schütze]
And I think I would like to really look at the terminology of our premise. We have now talked a lot about the framework conditions and needs and perhaps the groups we are addressing. But the most important thing is actually at the beginning: it is effective learning opportunities.

And then we say, how do we create effective learning opportunities? And I think that is, well, it must be clear that if we want to achieve a lot with this, then we have to do this. We have to analyze exactly that.

And we have to talk to the people for whom we want or need to design the learning opportunities. And only in this way will they be truly effective. So that is really close to my heart to say that again.

[Johannes Starke]
Right. And in that regard, we really can't avoid communication. Of course, we also work a lot with personas, where we make assumptions first.

But if we just make the assumptions and don't validate them through conversations, then personas are rather a dangerous instrument. So we can't avoid conducting the testing afterwards with the participants and those affected themselves.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. Yes, yes, that's another good and important thank you, because of course we work with these personas or with these roles, whatever the terminology is in the projects. And that's good and right, but it's a first step that we take.

And then you need something afterwards. Very, very good thought, Johannes. And you know, I also have this idea when we want to take into account such a wide range of conditions and needs and participants so that it is really good and suitable for people.

Then, I believe, this is the red carpet for our learning media mix par excellence, because then just e-learning and classroom training, whether virtual or in real life, is no longer enough, because the framework conditions that dictate that certain media are available and can be used, but perhaps are not even preferred, will probably make this bouquet of learning options more colorful and larger.

And, of course, we have to make sure that it's not just a colorful potpourri, but in any case we want to provide effective options, and we can do that by really opening up the bouquet.

[Johannes Starke]
I'm glad you mentioned that, and also this apparent conflict, often mentioned conflict between wishful thinking versus necessity, which in my opinion is not a conflict, because it's not about a colorful wishful thinking, what we play, but it's about employees in the organization wanting to do their jobs well. Then rational employees don't even think about asking for the moon, but the employees know exactly what they need.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And Johannes, I think it is rather we who are dreaming the blue of the sky, because we then travel in our thoughts in the great learning worlds that we have seen, heard or experienced somewhere and think, oh yes, you could do that too, or don't we want that, or man, couldn't you even try that. I feel caught out too, and it is perhaps important that we address this.

All of this is important. We need this creativity to advance in the field of learning innovation and to be able to offer innovative learning products, while still asking people what they would like to learn with, and how they would like to learn. Maybe it's not at the limit, but maybe it's the comfort zone, and maybe it's just too much for people who have to learn new topics to leave their comfort zone sometimes, especially when there are now umpteen new technologies and methods and possibilities that are incorporated.

[Johannes Starke]
I don't necessarily think that leaving the comfort zone, as it were, is a problem here either. If the many new techniques, offers and methods make sense to them and support them in their work, then I don't think we need to talk about comfort zones. So for me, comfort zone is a somewhat problematic term, because I don't want people to operate in a fear zone or panic zone or whatever, but we, even if we have many ideas and creative impulses about what we would like to implement in terms of learning opportunities.

Of course, it is also our very own job to ensure that it is realistic and that it reaches the people, the employees, where they work and where they can be reached.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, Janis. And I think that's all I wanted to say, but that's also a bit of my experience over the last two years.

The subject matter is often a challenge, it's new, and then there's the technology, which is actually new for the students, who may never have been on a whiteboard, or a Microsoft or Miro whiteboard, who don't even know exactly how to zoom in and out, but they're supposed to collect subject matter on the board, you see? There is always another level involved.

And I'm not saying that we shouldn't use it. I'm just saying that we have to think about it. I wasn't talking about learning media.

That perhaps in addition to the format we have in mind for the topics, there should be an introductory session where I offer to get to know the technology, get to know the tool, and then we get started and say, okay, now we can talk about the content. So I think we also need to take a step back a little.

What has become a matter-of-course tool for people like you and Michi in the meantime? And what do others need to be able to work with it as a matter of course?

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, I have to smile a little bit right now because you mentioned digital whiteboards Miro. I often had the exact opposite effect, that we did great workshops with Miro and in the end, at the feedback, at the wrap-up, the greatest learning experience was Miro. I learned Miro.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely. I'm familiar with that feedback, too.

But nevertheless, let me say, tongue in cheek, that we also create or enable digital skills with these training courses, which we have been doing for two years now with significantly different tools. But nevertheless, my message is that we need to consider this in our learning media mix, that we also need a kind of onboarding stage, so that people can then work well and easily and in a comfortable environment.

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely. I think there is still potential in areas where the conditions in companies are still getting in the way a bit. I think apprentices could and want to achieve an incredible amount for themselves, but we just haven't got the technology yet.

[Claudia Schütze]
And where there are also settings that simply do not allow things to be done due to the operating conditions. That's just the way it is. But we always do that, we determine that in clear needs assessments.

And I think our appeal regarding this new premise is and was to simply involve the participants much more themselves, so that the learning opportunities become effective. Have I summarized that quite well?

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely. I'm as happy as a child when those affected are actively involved in the projects.

[Claudia Schütze]
Exactly. And affected is not such a nice word, I much prefer involved. Dear Johannes, thank you for premise number 9.

Thank you for being here.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to another short episode of our mini-series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes, it's great to have you back. Welcome.

[Johannes Starke]
I'm happy too. Hello, dear Claudia.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello. Johannes, we have already talked about many premises and we also revealed at the beginning that there are twelve. We are almost at the end.

What are we talking about today? We want to talk about premise number eleven.

[Johannes Starke]
Continuous learning by organizations and their members is a prerequisite for value creation and future competitiveness.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay. I have said sometimes that it's a big topic, and I'll say that this time too. And why?

Because when it comes to ensuring the future of the organization, Johannes, ensuring the future viability of the organization, then for me it's practically the whole big thing. Let's talk about that. What are your thoughts on this?

[Johannes Starke]
This actually aims at a very often told story that we always hear, that we have to learn what is important in the future, in the form of, that we don't know today what will be important in the future, but we have to develop species so that we can adapt to what we need in the future. We don't know today what we will need tomorrow. That's why we have to learn to deal with it.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. And we as part of the organization, as part of our team and the organization itself, right?

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly. This affects all individuals, all people who are in the organization, who are also outside the organization, but of course also the organization as a whole. Across all organizational levels.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, so when we talk about future viability, we have to ensure that we are always developing the organization with the right skills, knowledge, opportunities, so to speak. And of course, we ourselves must continue to develop in the organization. That is the absolute prerequisite for this. And when we talk about further development, Johannes, it has something to do with learning per se.

And let's take a look at what the specifics are here that seem important to us in relation to this premise.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, I think there are a few points to consider here. Firstly, and we have already touched on this briefly, we need to move away from this approach, which perhaps used to work, but actually didn't really work in the past either, that we learn something once in the form of vocational training and can then apply it for the rest of our lives. This probably worked a bit better in the past than it does today, but it didn't really work that well either.

But then also, and you have already hinted at it, that we move to a meta-level and practice this adaptability, playing around with it, trying out what could be helpful in the future, that we also test different practices to see whether they work in our organization, whether they are rather rejected. That we learn to reflect on our work from different perspectives, so that we can learn together how to develop in the future. One important point, if I may just continue typing for a moment, is that we learn to get away from this snapshot thinking.

In other words, always only focusing on the next activity that I need right now for the next project.

[Claudia Schütze]
But Johannes, now I would like to interact very briefly. We need this anyway, because there will always be specific learning occasions and learning content and goals that I need now. But a second dimension is needed.

And please excuse me, but that was important to me, to just insert that again. And now back to the higher level, not to the very specific now, but to the long term.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. And I don't think these are two different things, but rather two facets of the same thing. I see learning as a kind of buffer.

Learning helps us to span this tightly timed management cycle thinking. Perhaps also under a formal hierarchy, building informal networks, opening up informal spaces, building implicit knowledge, implicit skills that help us on the one hand to do our daily work well and flexibly with the employees, with the colleagues, who need it at the moment, but then also further without management saying, do this now, do that now. Here is a course, an LMS, that we are assigning to you. This flexibility and this informality, to build what it takes through this, I'm assigning you a course now, you're doing it now and then you can get it out.

[Claudia Schütze]
Actually, Johannes, something where people in the organization and maybe also teams – so I would make it a bit bigger now – gain experience in smaller, more concrete situations, that certain learning strategies, learning formats, networks, exchange opportunities, whatever, have proven helpful. And this way, where I can put a check mark and say that on the scale of helpful, that was particularly good or at least good, I will pass that on. And what didn't work, I will gradually discard or adapt, change.

And I think that's what's so important about this premise: that we acquire skills and try out practices, and then keep what's good and develop it further, so that we and our teammates have our own repertoire of actions, so that we can respond to the uncertain issues of the future with a treasure trove of practices. And then to say, we have gained experience with informal learning spaces, which you have already touched on so nicely. We have gained experience with the exchange with others.

We have gained experience with open discussions on topics, perhaps even across sectors. And to use and apply what is good in situations that we expect and that will happen, but of which we cannot say exactly what the topic will be, in order to ensure the future viability of our organizations.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, exactly. What is important to me is that this doesn't just happen by itself, that we don't just say we're going to open a space and that's it, but that it can be quite beneficial to bring in a certain structure, a certain structure that allows us to get into this future-oriented rhythm. I'm currently thinking of a book I'm reading, Open Space Agility, by Daniel Metzig.

I hope I'm pronouncing it right now. He describes in detail how, for example, an organization can manage to get into this permanent mode of, we find ourselves, we try things out, we deal with topics and then, after a certain period of time, reflect on how we have progressed with them, whether we discard them or continue with them, by using this Open Space Agility approach, we do an Open Space twice a year at the beginning and end of the year and in between we have a learning chapter where we try out different types of agile work, try out agile learning and then draw conclusions, for example after 100 days.

[Claudia Schütze]
And what I have now heard, Johannes, from your statement, is on the one hand it is about the content, the topics that we really find, that we develop further, that we still develop further or discard again along the way. But it is also about the how, and I also have to reflect on the how, so that I can assess the skills that I need and perhaps, I'll stick with the word practices, I like it quite a bit, that I evaluate, so to speak, this repertoire that I now have in order to be able to develop further in this repertoire, in the how, in order to say, “That's exactly what I need to advance topics together with colleagues and develop my own knowledge for future, still completely unknown topics.” That's what it's all about, not learning for the sake of learning, but with the aim of ensuring the development of the organization, ensuring the future of the organization.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, because there is no patent remedy that can be copied, but the organization has to develop and build it up for itself.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. So Johannes, I think we've tried to shed some light on a few details. Above all, there is this continuous learning.

Johannes, we have now talked about members of the organization, about you, about me, about teams in which we work, and I think we have highlighted a few ideas about how this shared learning can take place. In the premise, we actually also had the formulation that the learning and development of the organization itself is important. Is that well covered by that or do you need some additional thought on this?

[Johannes Starke]
Now that you've pointed it out, I can think of one more thing: the effect of learning circles. Because I think it's something like LernOS, Working Out Loud. It's often not primarily about achieving an individual, professionally motivated learning goal, but about the way to get there, joint negotiation in different areas of the organization. How can we support each other, what kind of communication works well for us.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely.

Which areas of our company actually still exist to support us in our work? All of this is strengthened by learning circles. And here we are really not so much in a situation where an individual learning goal or a specific to-do in a team is relevant, but rather, as I said earlier, the strengthening of informal networks, the strengthening of communication styles, the strengthening below the formal hierarchy, all of this plays a role here in order to really build learning agility in the organization.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. Johannes, I think that's a super interesting idea. I think this premise actually has a lot of room for further discussion.

But, we have a mini-series and therefore only short episodes as part of our presentation of the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. And I would say that hopefully we have provided enough inspiration for our listeners and invite you to explore this premise number 11 in more detail. Johannes, thank you very much for joining us.

And then I would say, let's move on to the finale.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, see you soon.

[Claudia Schütze]
See you soon.

[Claudia Schütze]
Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts. Lernlust is released every three weeks, and we look forward to your feedback and, above all, to interacting with you.

You can write to us on Podigy or on Twitter or LinkedIn. And please feel free to tell us what you particularly like about our podcast and where we could perhaps improve. And please feel free to give us a rating on Google Podcasts or any other portal of your choice.

Well, we'll see you at the next Lernlust.

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to corporate learning.

[Susanne Dube]
We are Claudia Schütze and Susanne Dube and we are Learning Consultants at tts and we are the hosts of this podcast.

[Claudia Schütze]
And here we will exchange ideas about topics related to our work, in other words, everything that affects learning in organizations today and in the future.

[Susanne Dube]
And we will invite internal or external experts to join us from time to time. 

[Claudia Schütze]
And we would be delighted to have you there.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to the finale of our little podcast episode series on the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes, it's great to have you back for episode number 12.

[Johannes Starke]
Oh yes, thank you very much.

[Claudia Schütze]
So, I've betrayed everything. I have. I've betrayed.

Final. Twelfth premise from our Corporate Learning Manifesto. Johannes, what is premise number 12 about?

[Johannes Starke]
Learning takes place informally through collaboration. Formal learning opportunities lay the foundations on which we build through practice, experimentation, application and reflection.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, yes, great. I immediately see a pyramid in front of me. You know what I mean, our listeners don't, but in this, I don't know, let's call it a pyramid? Let's stick with that. Was it also about the design and arrangement and meaningful combination of a mix of formal and informal learning opportunities?

And I think that's what this is about, too.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. And, of course, the oft-mentioned 70-20-10.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, definitely.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, that we lay the 10 foundations in a formal context, i.e. in this framework, that make us capable of movement in a certain thematic space, that create a basic understanding for us. But then we move relatively quickly into the area in which we exchange ideas with colleagues and other participants, in which we carry out experiments, in which we dare to take the first steps to apply it in our work, in which we gain our experiences, in which we reflect with others and then of course very quickly also enter the non-formal or informal learning phases. And what is very, very important to me here is that it is, of course, not a chronological process and that we do not leave the formal learning phase at some point and then never re-enter it, but that from a certain point on, it is a permanent back and forth.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. But I think it's clear that the proportion of non-formal, informal learning opportunities is significantly greater, then, after a certain point.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly. However, we should always keep our options open if anything changes, if the work context changes, so that it is then also perfectly acceptable to return to formal learning opportunities.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely. I think it's a good idea because, as we say, formal learning opportunities, regardless of their nature, create basic knowledge and foundations. Then it's about bringing this into practical work and into the practical work environment and, there, with a lot of other learning formats and other ideas for learning contexts, seeing how you can first gain experience with it, how can I share my knowledge with others, and how can I continue learning from the needs that I have every day in my work context and that others may have to say, also have every day in their work contexts.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, and furthermore, that we take this permeability or even the urge for permeability into account when designing a learning offer, so that we already arouse the learners' curiosity in formal learning phases, prepare them for the application or invite them to go directly into the application, but that we also always have the option for employees who consider formal learning offers at a certain point to jump during the application and jump to formal learning offers.

And this path can be very different from learner to learner.

[Claudia Schütze]
Exactly, so I think it's another example of the support provided by our famous colorful blended learning mix, which is not just aimed at formal learning but also at learning in the moment of need, to just throw this terminology into the pot again, because that's the work context, that's the situation where I have topics, where I have questions that I have to answer, where I have problems that I have to solve and where I am confronted with situations that I could not consider at all in my formal learning offers. So, but where I have hopefully built up so much basic knowledge and maybe even some initial skills that it is possible for me to further explore what the right solutions are. And I think everything we've already mentioned in previous episodes, peer learning formats, communities, exchange formats, whatever, this social learning with each other is simply an essential part of continuing to learn in the daily work process.

And that's what it's all about for us.

[Johannes Starke]
Absolutely. In this context, I would also like to recommend the wonderful Lernlust podcast episode by Axel Lindhorst and Susanne Dube.

[Claudia Schütze]
Thank you.

[Johannes Starke]
Oh, with this beautiful title, forgetting your talents. I hope I have it right in my head now. You have worked out exactly that it is not about cramming dull knowledge, because it doesn't make sense at all, and then quickly disappears again for me, but you have it quite nicely, but that it is about developing talent, not in the classic sense of talent management, but in the sense of, I can help a talent flourish because I am moving within a framework in which I have these opportunities. Nevertheless, the formal learning phase is of course important. I think the two of them compared this to learning vocabulary.

Axel said at the time, I hope I convey it in a similar way to how he said it, at the beginning vocabulary is completely meaningless knowledge for us. It's just mindless rote learning, but at some point we reach a level that enables us to communicate, to engage in dialogue, and then the whole meaningfulness opens up and then we permanently come back to situations where we have to pick up a dictionary to look up a word. That's perfectly okay, because that's when our talent for speaking a language unfolds.

[Claudia Schütze]
But maybe we need languages in a professional context as well, but perhaps with the context in mind that we are more likely to experience in our work, in our situations in the workplace. I really like this example. Perhaps we also need to be a little more aware that what we do in these formal learning settings sometimes doesn't actually make much sense, because the practical experience, the practical experience, the classification into what would be the topic for me right now if I were sitting at my workplace, is simply still missing.

And maybe that, I'm talking to you right now, is not something I would have said before, and it should also become an essential part of our communication about our learning offers. How very formal is really basic science, which may not always seem meaningful, but it gets meaning through the experience in the work context and through the exchange with others who are equally affected, now I am actually using the word, that is, people who also have to deal with this issue, who solve similar tasks, who have the same roles in the organization. And all the more, there is more and more argumentation for peer learning, for social learning, so the more we make our way through here, I believe it is more and more grist to the mill of these topics, which are so important to me.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, I would say good learning opportunities, including formal ones, create a promise of what it can be like later on, when I have built up skills and can apply them.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely. And to make it clear that what I myself have given meaning to in the practical experience afterwards, that it makes even more sense when I share it. So that's something else, I think, that I think really belongs in a communication around learning opportunities.

So that's a bit of my insight from our little conversation here today. And maybe we can use it to pave the way for this colorful bouquet of learning opportunities, which can then be used in the direction of social learning and peer learning and however communities and so on can go, to simply make it clear what the benefits are. It's not just that we're trying it out because it's cool and because everyone's talking about it, but because we know that it has a real added value for everyone who participates in it.

And that, I think, is my little learning experience.

[Johannes Starke]
I have nothing to add to that, I think.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, dear Johannes. Then I'll say a big thank you for looking at the tts Corporate Learning Manifesto with me over twelve mini-episodes. And we hope that we were able to give you a small idea of twelve promises that are important to us in our work, in our development of learning offers, for and with our customers.

And we would be particularly pleased this time if you feel like giving feedback, if you feel like discussing, if you feel like sharing suggestions, for us or maybe also if you share with us which suggestions you have drawn from these twelve mini-episodes for you. So thank you for being here. Thank you for being there for one or maybe more or maybe even all of the mini-episodes.

And at some point, we will return to our normal schedule. Thank you, Johannes, for being here.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you, dear Claudia. It was very enjoyable to learn and discuss these twelve premises with you. And yes, everything that makes a good manifesto is not set in stone.

And I think we also learned a lot about our own manifesto. It was a great pleasure for me. And I hope that we will continue to reflect on and live by this in our daily work.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. So thank you and thank you for being there. Bye and see you at the next LernLust.

[Claudia Schütze]
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