LERNLUST #33 // Learner Journeys – four phases to success

Shownotes

Host:
Claudia Schütze, Senior Learning Consultant & Trainerin // LinkedIn

Guest:
Johannes Starke, Product Manager Learning // LinkedIn

“The four phases of a successful learner journey”: Article by Johannes Starke on tts insights (de)

Download the Learner Journey template (de)

"Learner Journey: What are they, what are they good for, how sustainable and long-term are they... and is it really a ‘journey’?”: Blog post by Johannes Starke (de)

"70-20-10 – the formula for learning success?”: Article by Johannes Starke on tts insights (de)

You can also find all episodes of our LERNLUST podcast at:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | Deezer

[Claudia Schütze]
Lernlust, the podcast for everything related to the topic of corporate learning. We are Susanne Dube and Claudia Schütze and we are learning consultants at tts. It's great to have you with us today.

[Johannes Starke]
We won't be able to design the learner journey perfectly from start to finish.

[Claudia Schütze]
Communication is taken into account in this learner journey.

[Johannes Starke]
Ideally, a learning journey will take several years. After all, it is a tool for us, not for the learners. Most learners will never even see this concept.

A colleague recently called it the icing on the cake.

[Claudia Schütze]
Travel is fun. Travel educates. Travel lets us discover new places and understand connections.

And maybe that's why it's the metaphor that is used for so many things in our daily work context today. Users travel, customers travel and learners travel. And it's the latter, the learner journeys, that we want to talk about this time.

What details need to be taken into account? What exactly is a learning journey? Is it just about creating learning offers or is it something much bigger and perhaps even in the context of user adoption?

What are our experiences? What are examples? And how does the template we use at tts to create these learning journeys work?
This time, I'm talking to my highly esteemed product management colleague Johannes Starke about all this and probably a lot more.

[Claudia Schütze]
Hello and welcome to a new episode of our LernDOS podcast, and I am very happy to be chatting again today with my esteemed product management colleague Johannes Starke. Johannes, welcome, it's great to have you here.

[Johannes Starke]
Hello Claudia, it's nice to be here.

[Claudia Schütze]
Our topic today is supposed to be about one of your favorite topics again. I think it's great when someone has as many favorite topics as you do.

[Claudia Schütze]
We want to talk about learner journeys today and I have the impression that this is an important topic for many people at the moment.

At least I encounter it relatively often, whether it's the perception filter or reality, in fact the topic of learning journeys is currently so widespread that there are actually requests in our work context that explicitly ask for learning journeys to be created. In this respect, I think it's a red carpet moment, and we want to talk about this topic a little more in-depth and detailed today, Johannes.

[Johannes Starke]
I like that and I can actually share your observation, the term is also coming up more and more in my work.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, do you have a hypothesis or any thoughts as to why this might be so popular right now?

[Johannes Starke]
I think it's because the insight and the perspective in general on how learning could work in companies, what is possible to promote learning in companies, is becoming more and more widespread. And we've always had it, but we're increasingly coming around to the idea of what different tools, what different perspectives, what different long-term interventions, experiments and so on we can implement to strengthen learning, far beyond what was often a very limited, constrained period in the past. Learning is, or should be, happening all the time and everywhere in today's world of work.

And the concept of learning journeys, which I would like to discuss with you today, is based precisely on the fact that learning is a very long-term process and cannot be limited to week X.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, Johannes, and then I would say we dive in a little deeper and a little more detailed right now. And now you've already said a bit about how you understand it. That was a nice red carpet, and of course I have to ask how exactly you understand the learning journeys.

[Johannes Starke]
A learning journey, from my perspective, from my understanding and also from the way I want to develop it with my customers, describes the path that individual learners take on a specific topic, ideally throughout their entire working life or throughout their entire engagement with the topic in their work context. So it extends far beyond a traditional learning offering, which is completed in a certain period of time, into daily work, into daily application, into improving the topic, into building expertise, and into exchanging ideas with colleagues. Ideally, a learning journey like this will take several years.

[Claudia Schütze]
And I think that's also what's new about it, Johannes, isn't it? We have always thought about learning paths, how people reach a goal, for example, to be able to operate software in such a way that they can meet the requirements in their daily work process afterwards. We have always done that.

But I think something has changed. And maybe, before we go a little deeper into this, Johannes, you have already touched on a few things.
The individual learning process was something you used.

[Claudia Schütze]
And maybe we want to do a little bit of conceptual clarification again, so that we really make it clear to everyone listening what we mean when we talk about a learning journey. And especially now you, because you are my interview guest today, so to speak.

So what is it for you, this learning journey?

[Johannes Starke]
So, in very rough and simplistic terms, I try to divide a learning journey into four phases. And that starts with an initial contact that a learner has on a particular topic. Perhaps we will go into the specific description a little later, but first of all, let's get an overview.

[Claudia Schütze]
I think we definitely have to dive into this. All right, so you're starting with it.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. So the initial contact can be anything. It could be a colleague in the hallway who tells me that she has now discovered this or that topic for herself.

And that would be worth delving into more deeply. It could be a formal assignment in the LMS. It could be an email from the boss, whatever.

And that's just the beginning, the initial interest, the initial spark that tells me, okay, this is where it starts.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay. And what would happen next, Johannes?

[Johannes Starke]
And then we get into the classic phase of initial learning. My awareness of the topic is heightened, the topic could contain something for me, something that would make my work better, for example. I need certain skills to deal with the topic in greater depth.

I have to practice certain things. Everything that we have traditionally focused on in the past, this phase of initial learning, of initial knowledge building, then, and this is not a strictly linear sequence, it can all be mixed together, we hopefully go into application as soon as possible, so that we can actually apply what we have formally built up in our daily work. And gain experience.

[Claudia Schütze]
First gain experience. Right.

[Johannes Starke]
And that can take many, many months, years, of course. Then we will certainly come across points where we realize that our formal knowledge is no longer sufficient. Then we have to go back to the phase of further knowledge building.

Maybe at some point, we have built up so much expertise that we want to pass on our knowledge, share our experiences, strengthen the topic in the company, pass it on to other colleagues, get involved in ensuring that the topic continues to improve in the company. That would be the phase that I now call establishment, which is certainly not always achieved, but it offers an opportunity, so it should be considered and conceptualized as an opportunity in the learning journey.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, I'm with you. So I do think that maybe the last point, what you just mentioned at the end, what you call establishment, that maybe that's also something that we haven't yet considered in the idea of learning pathways, which I tried to bring up a bit on the trapeze earlier. And I think that is also one of the success factors, at least from my perspective, if we now try to design and conceptualize these learning journeys so comprehensively.

And for me, comprehensively means that I would now like to quickly say, we'll just quickly mention the four phases again so that our listeners also have the structure in mind, so to speak, which we would like to talk about a little more now. So we say that it needs a triggering event, some kind of starting point. We say that it needs initial learning, although perhaps that will be a bit more than just initial.

So maybe building up basic knowledge would be a good translation for me. And then it's about applying this learned knowledge. So really practicing and implementing it and then, in the establishment phase, seeing how I can perhaps also bring my knowledge into the organizations and develop and improve it.

[Johannes Starke]
And in this respect, the concept of the learning journey naturally overlaps greatly with models such as 70-20-10 or experience, exposure, education – all these things that actually also contribute to the fact that formal knowledge building is only a very, very small part of the learning process.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, very good. It's great that you said it again, so that we can also link it a bit to other models that are available. Very good.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, now we have clarified the structure again. It's not enough just to have these four phases in mind, and not just us, but also other people out there who say that learning journeys are also very, very important to us today in order to make learning more successful overall. I think that is one of the trigger points why we now also want to use a tool like learning journeys in organizations to make learning more comprehensive and more successful and sustainable.

There are still many details that we could discuss. And of course, our listeners don't have our worksheet in front of them, which we might use as a template to design a journey, although it might be helpful to note at this point that we will of course link it in the show notes afterwards. And you can take another look at it and know what we had in mind when we were talking.

But Johannes, I think even without a picture, let's dive in now. What are details that need to be considered for different perspectives, so to speak?

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, so it would be really helpful to have this template in front of us. That's why you mentioned in the show notes that every listener can download the template. And I've already sent it to a lot of people who said that they now use it in their work and that it really helps them.

[Claudia Schütze]
Let's just explore the topic without this visualization.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, so a learner journey, as I said, is not a strictly linear process, but we do have to propose a certain chronology. Of course, we have to do that, knowing full well that it's not set in stone. That's why I would suggest that we first consider certain subtopics and subdivisions for each of these phases: the trigger phase, initial learning, application and establishment.

What should I deal with when I reach this step, which subtopic should I deal with then?

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, let's get started then.

[Claudia Schütze]
Perhaps we still have to keep in mind, Johannes, that we already have two different groups of addressees in mind when we talk about the learner journey. On the one hand, it's about providing something at the end, so to speak.

And on the other hand, it's about creating the learner journey itself. Have I tried to put that into words correctly to define these groups of addressees?

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, exactly, although the learners don't even see this completed template at the end.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, but that is a focus that we naturally have when we develop this. And vice versa, and I may have been a bit complicated in my language, it is also about us or other people who create and develop such learner journeys. And in this respect, I think there are already two target groups when we talk about learner journeys.

So in the end, the beneficiaries of everything we develop here and those who work here and also need support and have to pay particular attention to things or have to pay particular attention to things. And please keep that in mind when we talk about it now.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly. The learner journey primarily describes the experience, the path of the learner, the individual learner, based on personas, i.e. on the personas through the learning process and application process. But as providers, as learning designers, it naturally serves us to think about the topic, it serves us as a tool to create a good offer for learners.

[Claudia Schütze]
Johannes, quick edit. You just talked about the persona again, brought the persona into play. We were trying to say a bit about learner journeys: why do they exist right now, what do they do roughly, what is the goal of them?

We have presented our four phases. Now you have brought personas into play. What is the role of the persona in this design of a learner journey?

[Johannes Starke]
It's good that you mentioned that. Of course, it's important to make it clear at the beginning that we don't develop one learner journey for all learners, but that we develop different learner journeys based on personas that we have developed in advance. So, for example, let me give you an example: a software introduction in a company. It is very likely that different types of users have very different perspectives on the software, pursue different goals, which of course should all come together in the end and promote the strategic goals of the company.

But the way they approach and use the software is different, sometimes even conflicting. And that's why it's so important that we start by looking at our learners and developing these different personas. In other words, a persona that represents as concrete a picture as possible of a fictitious learner.

And we then use this description to determine how we can best support this persona in their learning and work context, and what the learner journey for this very specific persona should look like.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, great that you explained that again. So in principle, we don't have one learning journey, but in the vast majority of cases, we will design many learning journeys.

[Johannes Starke]
What is also good, though, and this has become clear from practical experience time and again, is that a persona is different from a role description. Often we come in and then we hear that we have 20 different roles. Should we now create different learning journeys for all of them, then we'll never be done.

That's right. But often personas can be reduced quite a bit. For example, we recently had a case where we had, I think it was 14 different types of learners that we had defined at the beginning.

And in the end, I think we ended up with four personas. And then we had to create four different learner journeys. So a persona now simply describes a specific set of needs, attitudes, and levels of competence that learners bring with them, across a specific role.

[Claudia Schütze]
Previous knowledge too, of course. Previous knowledge, exactly. Absolutely.

Great. I think it's important to make that clear again, because I think there are contexts in which people talk a lot about roles for good reasons. And other contexts in which the persona vocabulary is much more common.

And there was also the podcast with Susanne, where exactly that was discussed a bit. It was more about the user adoption approach. So maybe a little tip to listen to it again.

But it was also about role and persona. And in this respect, Johannes, thank you for bringing it up again here on the trapezoid, so that we can once again make it clear what we understand by it and how it can be processed here in this learning journey. Okay, so I think we've clarified the framework again.

We also talked a bit about preparatory work. We might put that into a larger context later. But before we do that, I think we should stick to what the vocabulary gives us, the learning journey.

Now we have talked about the four phases. Johannes, let's get started.

[Johannes Starke]
Very good, exactly. I wonder if it might be useful to take a specific, fictitious example to make it a bit more tangible. So I use, and this is also listed in the articles that we will link in the show notes, an example of the introduction of a new collaboration platform.

Let's just call it Colabo. Excellent, so as not to make it too closely related to well-known and often used popular collaboration platforms. We'll just call it Colabo.

Excellent.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, perfect.

[Johannes Starke]
And let's just assume, for example, that we have a sales colleague. Let's call him Peter Pohl or something like that.

[Claudia Schütze]
A persona for a sales colleague. Sorry, but this is really important to me, because when you start working with personas, one of the stumbling blocks is that it is not a real person from the company, but a persona.

[Johannes Starke]
The persona Peter Pohl from sales, exactly. So, good, and now we are, I have just spoken about the subtopics, after we have discussed the whole link first, then let's take a quick look.

[Johannes Starke]
Trigger, initial first phase of the trigger.

For example, the persona Peter Pohl receives an announcement, by e-mail for example. Something is in store for you, a new software is coming for all of us. So, and then, I'll go through the subtopics, the packages, so to speak, and then we would move on to the phase of initial learning and say, okay, first of all, of course, the general goals of this new application, which is being introduced by CollaboExcellent, should be presented.

After that, it is important for Peter Pohl to get to know the basics and features of how to use this tool. And then it slowly transitions into the application phase. So then, yes, what does that mean now?

How is our work changing? How do we work together?

[Claudia Schütze]
But I think that can also be a good topic for the learning phase. Because that is perhaps another premise that I would like to emphasize. For us, there is no software training without an integration into the process.

And your example is now a software, so it's about this collaboration platform. And of course it's also about trying things out, but it's also about getting a picture of what I'm creating and understanding how the roles, how different people work with each other with this software afterwards. So I think I would actually like to locate that in this phase of initial learning as well.

[Johannes Starke]
It's good that you brought that up. I think that's one of the, I might be getting ahead of myself a bit, but one of the deadly sins that you shouldn't commit, to demarcate the phases too strictly from one another.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, we'll talk about that again later, Johannes. Stop there, please. Okay, let's just get on with it so that we can bring a bit of clarity into this design.

Now I interrupted you a bit because I made the comment again that there should be no software training without process classification. Now you were about to enter the application. Right, exactly.

[Johannes Starke]
So, and then this and that happens in the application. The initially established skills are applied. But there are also points, a function that I rarely need.

How do I find it again? Some kind of problem occurs. How do I react in this situation?

These are the typical subtopics that arise during months or years of application.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay.

[Johannes Starke]
And then, maybe at some point, after months and years, we have the persona Peter Pohl is very committed and also wants to pass on and share his knowledge, thinks this new Collabo-Excellent application is maybe really good and accordingly wants to contribute to the distribution of version 2.0, so that new colleagues can quickly get on board and be convinced of the advantages, and thinks about how we can now make our collaboration even better thanks to this continuously improving collaboration platform. These are all subtopics that can arise in the final phase of establishment. It is also possible that Peter Pohl or another persona, who is not Peter Pohl now, but another persona, perhaps does not have this zeal and these opportunities in their work context.

Therefore, the establishment may be smaller for them.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely, absolutely. I think that these are real possibilities that we are pointing out here and the potential that this application and establishment phase offers. And that's why it's perhaps something that you shouldn't lose sight of when you're still working with the users in the follow-up, exchanging ideas and always keeping an eye on improving the software and processes.

Exactly.

[Johannes Starke]
A colleague recently called it the icing on the cake.

[Claudia Schütze]
Okay, yes, nice metaphor, I like that.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, now of course we have the subtopics for the time being. This probably sounds relatively familiar, this way of proceeding.

[Claudia Schütze]
Maybe the last step is something that hasn't been taken in every project so far and maybe won't be taken in every project in the future. But let's say three plus icing on the cake.

[Johannes Starke]
Right. And then we address the fact that we really think about each of these subtopics and ask ourselves what the value for learning actually is. What do learners achieve when they are in this sub-phase, in this subtopic?

And that is also relatively tangible. Of course, this is often referred to as learning objectives or something like that. When it comes to application and establishment, it is of course more than a learning objective, because then we are no longer in the classic learning context, but in the application context.

But in principle, these should actually also be relatively familiar types. So, for example, in the trigger phase, the new application is announced. Of course, the value for the learner is first of all, he knows.

He knows that there will be something new in the future that he has to be prepared for.

[Claudia Schütze]
And not just anything, Johannes. And I think that's the point, but what exactly is it that he's in for? And I think that's something else that we, I think, know in theory, but where it still requires a lot of discipline in the implementation afterwards to deal with it in a very specific way and to make specific announcements.

[Johannes Starke]
Right. And exactly, the value for the learner in the phase of initial learning, so where it is about the goals of this new platform and about the tool operation and about the way of collaboration, then on the one hand, of course, the importance, the strategic importance for the company, as well as the individual benefits, is then, of course, only heard from the top, in order to then be able to deal with it intellectually.

Then, of course, in very specific terms, that the relevant functions can also be used, so that in addition to the basic interest or openness, the qualification is there. I can click the right buttons and I can start now and I know what I'm doing. Then, when I'm in the subtopic of how we work together, the main value for the learner is, of course, that he or she can communicate with colleagues about the meaningful use of this software, because the fact that everyone can press the right buttons does not mean that everyone is then working together meaningfully and finding a common modus operandi.

[Claudia Schütze]
And that we all benefit from it. And maybe that's even one of the factors by which the software is ultimately judged most by employees. How much does it really help me in my daily work and what are my advantages and how much do I get out of it?

[Johannes Starke]
Especially with popular collaboration platforms. What have we not all learned since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic? We can all create new channels and folders and so on now, but we are flooded with information and have not agreed on what etiquette we follow.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, absolutely. And I think this “How do we want to work together?” question is important. We are, after all, using a collaboration platform.

That is our example here. And knowing what the software can do? Well, maybe there is something new every two weeks, but that's just the way it is.

And if necessary, you have to deal with small details. But basically that's just one step. It will only be successful if we work together and that is, I think, also a phase of, perhaps at the end of the initial learning.

How do we want to use these functions that are there together? So in the process, let's talk again and deepen how we want to apply the functionalities, so to speak.

[Johannes Starke]
Right, exactly. And when we are in the phase of daily use, perhaps over a longer period of time, and there is a basic, shared understanding of how we want to work together, and the right buttons have been found, there are always problems, things where I don't know where this function was hidden after all. So these absolute classics that come up in our daily work, where I don't want to take another full-fledged course or book a two-day seminar, but need help in what we always call the moment of need, for example.

It could also be that I'm mentoring a new colleague and want to show her how to use a tool based on my job, a kind of crash course. These are also possible applications. Or I somehow discover a new function that was added by a software update, which now takes me completely by surprise.

All these are situations that arise constantly in our daily work. And here, too, that is the value we want to create for learners, this security. Even if I don't want to use formal basic training, I still have the support that helps me.

[Claudia Schütze]
I think that's actually an essential point.

[Johannes Starke]
And when it comes to establishing it, it's obvious that if I want to get involved, I can help to establish and improve this topic more broadly. Then, of course, my value is that I make our way of working together better. That would be my value in this example.

I make sure that CollaborExcellent, this communication and collaboration platform, permanently improves our way of working. Or me, another value could also be, I make myself visible in the company as the expert for topic X. Or me, I get a pat on the back from my colleagues.

All these are potential values for the learner.

[Claudia Schütze]
And that I might also feel responsible for the further development of the software. And that is to the effect that we all think that it can support us even better in our daily work. It can also be a value that I contribute to this constantly and continuously.

[Johannes Starke]
Well, I think this description should have already made it a bit clearer what a learner journey encompasses. That is, what range we are trying to describe in the learner journey. That's why I would suggest that we maybe shorten the next two lines in our template a bit.

[Claudia Schütze]
Do it, exactly. Say what you want to talk about now.

[Johannes Starke]
The next question we ask in the learner journey when we go into the design is how and when do learners reach the step? So, what is the point in time? How does it happen?

In which context does it happen? What are they doing at that moment? Yes, that could be, for example, when the trigger is activated, the push email comes, or I am approached in the hallway, or I discover it on some device or other, or whatever.

And then, of course, always, and that would be the next category, what thoughts and feelings does it trigger in learners when they come into contact with this phase through this trigger? How do they feel about it? What are their desires?

What do I need this for? Oh, that sounds exciting, but do I perhaps still need to prove it? And, oh, now talk, after I have gone through the phase of initial knowledge building.

[Claudia Schütze]
But I do find that very, very important, Johannes, even though you said that we'll put it together. But actually, I think these thoughts and feelings, now for example with the trigger, which you just started to describe, are definitely something that we can use in the accompanying communication, and that is now something that plays a role in this learner journey. So I think we no longer separate the communication concept and the learning offers, but the communication is taken into account in this learner journey.

And when I do that, I have to think about what triggers the information about a new software. And it doesn't necessarily have to be just, oh, exciting, I feel like trying it out. We all know that there can be completely different feelings and thoughts about it, so to speak, so what we have always done with change communication, so to speak, is now simply a component of this learner journey at this point.

That's why, even if we just said it, let's summarize it, but I think it needs this space to go into it in detail in order to start value-creating communication here.

[Johannes Starke]
And also to consciously consider which triggers come over the learner that he cannot control, that he is simply confronted with, for example, an e-mail from his boss telling him to get on with it. Or a specific problem that comes up unexpectedly. And things that he can influence himself, where he can actively say, I need more of this, I would like to pass on my knowledge.

That is very, very essential, it creates a different emotional balance. So, and these thoughts that we then had, when and how does this come to the learners, what feelings, reservations, hopes do they have about this step, naturally ensures that we have to select a suitable learning format. And that's why the choice of learning format is actually at the very bottom of our template, because first of all we have to think hard about what the topic is, what value it has for the learners, how it comes to them, what attitude they have towards the topic.
And then, how can we choose the right learning, the appropriate or potentially appropriate learning format to deal with it.

[Claudia Schütze]
I think it's great, Johannes, that you've presented it again in such a way that it's the result of the previous discussion, so to speak, everything we've already gone through, and that we then decide what's best, to have it in the back of our minds again. We have the persona that we have identified, who has certain preferences for learning, brings certain experiences with them, has certain tendencies and desires. And then we decide on the learning format.

Well, which is of course also a broad concept. It can also simply be communication or whatever, but for the format. And how often do we still have the situation, Johannes, and that's why I think it's so important that you presented it in this order, that clients come to us with the wish that we would like to design face-to-face training.

And there's nothing really wrong with that, but it's just one way of arriving at the format selection. And I think it's so nice that you've illustrated that again.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. I've worked on a few customer projects where, at the beginning, all we got was a request for video training on Excel. And when we thought about it, developed the personas and then sketched out an initial learner journey for a specific persona, it quickly became clear that we wouldn't get very far with just video training.

We may need a condensed video training, but we definitely need space for exchange. We need space for it to be adapted to local conditions by specific trainers in different locations, and so on. That's what happens when you ask yourself the questions outlined in the learning journey.

[Claudia Schütze]
Great. So, I think that's a really great way of deepening our understanding of the topic, because I think practical experience underpins the importance of this order. Perfect.

Okay, Johannes, what's next?

[Johannes Starke]
I'm just wondering whether we should now, we've now outlined the upper part, so to speak, of the learning journey, which describes how a person deals with the topic over many, many years. Now, this tool is used to help us, as designers of learning opportunities, of work contexts in companies, to deal with the improvement, that is, with the development of a good learning journey. This is a tool for us, not for the learners.

Most learners don't even get to see this concept. That's why we've perhaps broken with the pure doctrine a bit and said, okay, we'll add a small appendix below where we describe from the point of view of the learning designers what success we expect from the structure of the phase as it is. So what success do we expect from the choice of a particular learning format and so on.

[Claudia Schütze]
So for us, that's what a quality check is?

[Johannes Starke]
That we can also explain to the client, for example. Why we propose it the way we have proposed it.

[Claudia Schütze]
I find that extremely exciting. Good. Would you like to give a few more details on that, please?

[Johannes Schütze]
Well, we have three different lines in the template. The first line is specifically the desired outcome. What improvement should be achieved for the various stakeholders, for the company?

For example, that our employees are informed on the topic, are attuned to the topic, that they build up competence in using the application, that the application is used as intended, that a thousand workarounds are not built, that employees can support themselves, that certain processes are accelerated as a result. All these are success factors, overarching success factors that we describe here. To make it clearer, we need this phase and we can't just skip it.

[Claudia Schütze]
But we still break it down to the persona?

[Johannes Starke]
That's a bit of a tightrope walk. So, of course, in this case, it is specifically formulated for the persona. Ideally, these general successes should not differ too much from each other.

[Claudia Schütze]
Well, that's my thought. Let's assume that, in addition to Peter Pohl, we find two other personas that we now want to take into account in the learner journey design in order to create a holistic learning offering. Now, for me, the thought would be that maybe what we learning designers have defined as a success factor is not even different for the three personas.

That's a thought I have right now.

[Johannes Starke]
It's good that you mentioned that, because I think you could actually superimpose them quite well and check them. Yes, that's what I think.

[Claudia Schütze]
Maybe, I don't know, you'd have to look at it in detail to see if there are any small deviations. But basically, I think we should be able to measure the same success criteria for each persona.

[Johannes Starke]
Ideally, it should correlate strategically with the strategic business goals.

[Claudia Schütze]
I think so.

[Johannes Starke]
So, and then we go a bit more specific. Then we see if there are any metrics, any evaluation options when processing, completing this phase, so that we can determine on the provider side that this phase is working. For example, if the phase of the features, the operation of the tool, is going well, that the support requests will then decrease.

That when we are in the phase of how we work together, that is, this joint negotiation about a good way of working together, when we are in it, that then the process speed of certain things increases. That now, for example, the offers go out to the customer faster.

[Claudia Schütze]
And to be perfectly honest, in my mind, in this initial learning phase, we are also trying to identify, or perhaps formalize, how we can tell how successful the information and learning opportunities we have provided have been. In the phase, and this is not a phase that only lasts a week, but it is a process of initial learning. And to also look at how we can tell whether the offers we make are successful or promising.

So the question is, for example, if we think about offering asynchronous learning opportunities, i.e. videos, for example, learning videos could be watched. But if they are not watched, then we somehow have to ask ourselves what was not good enough to reach the learners. Maybe it was the communication, maybe it was the offer itself.

And now I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, Johannes, of what we discussed in the preliminary talk. And indeed, I believe that if we think about it in terms of the learning journey, it is an opportunity to intervene with iterative loops, however small, in the learning offer itself at a point in the learning journey where we can still influence the learning success to be better than it is at the moment.

[Johannes Starke]
It's good that you mentioned iterative loops. We won't be able to design the learning journey perfectly from scratch, from start to finish, but it will build up over time. We first have to gain experience.

Is this the right way to do it, or do we need a different approach?

[Claudia Schütze]
I think, of course, we need a starting plan. I mean, even if I pack the car full and say I want to go to Italy now, I also have a plan for how to get there. And yet at some point I can say, oh, here I have to turn a bit and go somewhere else and see something else or load something, whatever that means, even if the example may divide now.

But what I want to say, as I understand it, is that this is an orientation and a structure that we use to design and offer learning opportunities and make them available for learners to use. So, use also means, for example, seeking out discussions or attending learning circles, whatever the learning formats we offer. But it should be possible to use these iterative loops to see whether what we have considered at this point in time is still the best possible and most promising.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. You have addressed two points here that we should definitely discuss. Firstly, the travel metaphor with the trip to Italy that you brought up is, I think, necessary for us to look at again, whether this is really a trip.

And the second point is a structure that we offer, but which has to find the right balance between predetermined and freely designable. And also the point of whether it really has to be predetermined from start to finish, whether learners can also pick out certain parts, for example, exactly. In that case, let's definitely go into that in more detail, maybe after we've discussed the last point.

[Claudia Schütze]
Exactly, I'll give you the floor again, so to speak, to talk about the learner journey, about our template, again to the end.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly.

[Claudia Schütze]
Johannes, what is still missing?

[Johannes Starke]
Finally, to offer it in a very tangible way, how do we think it should be done, what internal resources do we need to create, offer and implement it? So, which stakeholders do we need? What hardware, software, budget, whatever.

[Claudia Schütze]
So very practical things for the implementation, so to speak. Okay. But I think we have a good picture now, don't we?
I think so too, yes. So, okay. Then let's at least take up the two points that you just noted.

So, if I remember correctly, the travel metaphor was the first thing that triggered you to a small contradiction, I think.

[Johannes Starke]
Yes, contradictory. Of course, it makes sense for many learner journeys to describe it as a journey. It's also a nice emotionally connected image.

And on a journey, you broaden your horizons and come home with lots of new ideas and maybe some good recipes and who knows what else. Nevertheless, it often goes a bit awry, because especially when we're talking about a learner journey here, which ideally never ends as long as I'm in the company, in my work context, and apply the things I initially learned at some point, share them with colleagues and so on, I don't have this final goal where I want to go, there in Italy and then my journey is over, but it goes always going on. That's one point that's perhaps different.

[Claudia Schütze]
I have something now, Johannes. May I say something about it? Maybe again about the point, what types of learner journeys do we have at all or learning journeys do we have at all.

You said that ideally it never stops. As long as I'm in the company, my learning process will continue. I agree with that.
But maybe not with this software. Maybe it won't even exist in five years. And then completely different things will come onto the trapeze.

And now, of course, we want the software to last longer than five years, maybe my comment wasn't that qualified, but there are reasons why this keeps happening. New learning topics appear on the horizon and perhaps disappear again.

So in this respect, I believe that it does not necessarily have to be a lifelong learning journey.

[Johannes Starke]
I agree. I can sign that. Another point where the travel image may be a bit misleading is the goal that keeps popping up and then maybe changing again.

On a trip, you usually have an ideal route. It may be planned so that certain beautiful sights are along the way. Then you might not take the fastest route, but maybe a nice detour.

But you have a predetermined route that is followed. And that is only partially the case with a learning journey. So ideally, we offer different entry points.

We have a whole range of options for learners to reflect on. Is this a sensible approach for me now? Do I need something different at this point?

You jump back and forth from the application phase to the initial, formal learning phase.

[Claudia Schütze]
That's a good point. Okay, yes, it is true that the phases are not so distinct and are synchronous. I think that's the right insight to take from this.

[Johannes Starke]
Ideally, you have... It's one thing, a learning journey also offers so much flexibility that if we notice in the company as a team or as individual employees that it doesn't make my work better. Maybe I've taken the wrong approach, that you learn from it and just take a different path. So these, these many different points where you reflect and maybe also realize, okay, the experiment I've done now hasn't made the situation any better.

We have to do something else.

[Claudia Schütze]
But, but from me, Johannes, sorry. I think it has something to do with how people interpret travel as an image, as a linguistic image. And if it's a journey to get there, then I say, no, that's not our learning journey.

But if it's traveling in the sense of being on the road, wanting to arrive somewhere, at some point, internally, externally, and seeing what the path offers along the way, then I think it's relatively close to how we understand our learning journey. In keeping with the theme, detours increase local knowledge, so you can definitely add that on a bit.

[Johannes Starke]
It's good that you brought it up again, because I was already inclined to describe it as more of a stroll or drift or something. But of course that's not it either, because we naturally have an economically driven goal that it should also happen fairly quickly, until Time to Competence.

[Claudia Schütze]
Absolutely. Yes, and it's important that you say it again. And yet, I think for me, the travel metaphor fits.

And if I just notice that it makes sense to exchange ideas with colleagues from the neighboring department, in the first phase of application, conception, application, to exchange ideas with them about how they have defined their collaboration and how they want to use the tool for their collaboration. If we somehow get stuck and can't move forward, then I get help and we exchange ideas. And in the travel metaphor, that would simply be the detour to a small point that I didn't even have on the map before, wanting to see it.

So in that respect it doesn't matter. I think we now have to spend too long on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of this travel metaphor. But I wanted to tell you my association with it and say that for me it seems quite fitting.

[Johannes Starke]
I would like to briefly return to the topic of structure, predetermined structure, and breathing room. We recently carried out a project in a highly regulated environment, where the primary aim was to structure regulatory topics prescribed by legislation in a learner journey. And of course there was a big question mark.

Yes, we have very clear guidelines. It takes so many minutes. Everything has to be there.
It has to end with a test. Why do we need a learner journey here?

[Claudia Schütze]
What did you do?

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly. We actually came up with a lot of ideas in the course of creating the learner journey that it needs freedom again at certain points. For example, we had the problem, this is an international company, that they have the problem, the customer called it the “not-invented-here syndrome”, that when this particular occupational safety training is carried out all over the world, then a defensive attitude arises.

Nah, but with us it's all very different and it doesn't work that way with us. And then in the past, the trainers more or less designed their own training, which then only took into account the formal requirements. But the whole content creation was new.
And this learner journey thinking ensured that we realized that 90 percent of the content is actually the same everywhere. But then, essentially, there is still this – I'm making up numbers now – ten percent, that is, this small proportion, which is then negotiated individually on site, where employees can see that what is being given to us here, if we use it in such and such a way, then it also makes sense for us. So we then combined this very, very strict, regulatory requirement with the necessary flexibility.

[Claudia Schütze]
I think that's a very, very good idea.

[Johannes Starke]
And that also led to an improvement in terms of finances, because you could simply reuse 90 percent over and over again.

[Claudia Schütze]
And I think from the learners' point of view, it has led to a high level of acceptance, in other words, it should have significantly increased acceptance if they were involved in this remaining, let's call it ten percent, no matter how much it really was, but if they were involved in saying, well, what do we think is really different about us, and if they can see themselves in it, it naturally also has a huge impact on acceptance impact. Yes, great, exciting, very exciting.

Well, Johannes, I think we've talked quite a bit about the basics, namely about this, let's say template, to develop this learning journey for the learners and also as a supporting aid for the learning designers. And we've tried to illustrate that a bit with examples and little excursions, so to speak. We have already touched on a whole range of things in passing.

Nevertheless, looking at the clock, I think there is one more thing we definitely need to discuss.

[Claudia Schütze]
From your point of view, what are the success factors that make the design or development of learner journeys successful?

[Johannes Starke]
That we really take the template or the questions asked in the template seriously. So, for me, of course, the most important thing is that we do enough basic research to build and validate our personas appropriately. In other words, we don't invent personas the way we would like them to be, but we build personas based on our understanding, which we then really validate through interviews.

Nothing is worse than when a management team builds personas, because the management's understanding of the work contexts and the needs of the employees is often different from what it really looks like in the work context.

[Claudia Schütze]
So don't talk about people, talk to people if possible. Yes, very good.

[Johannes Starke]
And, of course, their work contexts, their work steps, and the typical problems that arise must also be taken into account. An understanding of how we operate in which environment and within which framework. So what can we actually do or what is simply not promising due to certain regulatory or structural conditions in the company?

We can talk about social learning opportunities as much as we like, but if the structures in the company have not been created for this, if remuneration models have not been created for this, and so on and so forth. So that we thoroughly address this and that we never lose sight of the strategic link to the company. So on the one hand, we take into account the individual link, but also the cross-organizational strategic link.

That we consciously select our learning formats. One tool that we like to use is our learning design cards, where we have developed a certain taxonomy that helps us to find the appropriate formats. For example, what is needed here is more of a negotiation of values, a shared understanding of something.

Do we really need a classic structure of knowledge resources, of networking and so on, do we need to get into action with the format here? And also at what level. Is it an individual level, is it a team level, is it an organizational level or even together with customers, together with other companies.

So that we really take this into account very consciously when building our learner journey. What do we really want to achieve and at what level?

[Claudia Schütze]
And always keep the context in mind. Sometimes, perhaps, the best possible learning formats, after all that you have just explained so beautifully, are those that are identified, but unfortunately have a very poorly documented history, for whatever reason. And then I have to look for alternatives.

So it's not just a matter of input-output, but there is a lot involved in identifying the right learning format here. It's great to have the help of these cards, which is certainly a great, great support, but it's also helpful to have the experiential knowledge of the organization.

[Johannes Starke]
Then, yes, we try to look as far as possible into a potential future. That is, into the future of the application and its establishment. It is often very, very difficult to do that.

And it also requires that the learning journey be understood as a working document and updated regularly. The different perspectives that we really take into account very, very consciously when developing different learning journeys. A learning journey is created for a persona.

We may have very similar learning journeys. We may have very different learning journeys for different personas. But often it is also essential that, although we sketch out different paths for different personas, we incorporate meeting points.

For example, not too long ago I had a project that involved the introduction of a CRM system. And there were very different attitudes towards the work that is done with this CRM tool. And also the understanding of the work of colleagues.

For example, well, I think, I hope I'm not stepping on any sales colleagues' toes. The willingness to enter very detailed data into a CRM system is often perceived as a nuisance. Why do I have to enter that here too?

But there are other groups that need this data. For example, marketing then needs this data. And that's why we deliberately built meeting points into the program so that these different interest groups can meet and introduce themselves to each other, explaining why they do what they do.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, cool. I think that's extremely important, Johannes. It's another great feature that you've included.

This, that's also something to argue from different angles with benefit aspects and to promote understanding. And these are also classics in other software solutions, that you yourself may have more work now in the new solution when maintaining certain information, but others in an integrated system can benefit from it much more. And to promote understanding that new doesn't always have to mean less, but different may mean.

So that's a great point. Thank you for bringing that up again as an example.

[Johannes Starke]
Exactly, I'd be happy to. And you asked something else, stumbling blocks or what?

[Claudia Schütze]
What shouldn't happen? Or what are stumbling blocks? I mean, you've already mentioned a great many success factors.
Now, of course, you can turn it all around. But is there anything else from your experience that could really be a stumbling block?

[Johannes Starke]
I think it's not easy to find the right balance in the level of detail.

[Claudia Schütze]
Ah, okay.

[Johannes Starke]
Because I think it takes a very, very broad Learn-A-Journey for very big topics, for very long-term topics, for topics that describe the development of certain employees in the company, where you sometimes also need to create sub-Learn-A-Journeys. So that is, often it takes a high altitude to get more specific. It's not that easy.

You need a certain amount of experience to avoid the temptation to want to prescribe every single step in too much detail and too specifically, which brings us back to the right balance between freedom and prescription.

[Claudia Schütze]
I understand that, absolutely. And there's one point that we haven't discussed yet, Johannes, and that we may not be able to address in this episode, but maybe it's a chance to do an extra episode for it. How can principles of agile learning actually come into play here?
Because what you just said again so nicely, to say, okay, this balance between freedom and direction, that also has something to do with the agile design of this learning path. And we're guaranteed to make an extra topic out of that. Yes, very nice, thanks for that.

[Johannes Starke]
So, another difficulty or another danger is that we are inclined to want to send all learners from the beginning to, well, sometime at the end. And that we don't take into account the fact that, although a persona is given, there are different needs for entry points at the end. When I talked about it at a Barcamp, a session participant mentioned the idea of helicopter landing pads.

So that you think of and take into account such different possibilities of approaching the topic in an individual way.

[Claudia Schütze]
Yes, cool. But that would be grist to my mill again, so to speak, with the more agile design of these learning journeys, learning paths. Yes, great.

[Johannes Starke]
And maybe one last point. I already briefly mentioned to you earlier that we are not inclined to decouple these different phases from each other too much. Especially when it comes to the phase of initial knowledge and competence building and the phase of application, we tend to make the fatal mistake of bombarding employees with information for what seems like forever about why this application, for example, is particularly important and good for them, thereby depriving them of the opportunity to gain their own experience with it as quickly as possible in order to really feel this self-efficacy. That's really something for me.

Or, as another point, to go into a defensive position as quickly as possible, which we can recognize and pick up on. So, that something like this happens when we separate the whole thing too rigidly. We should really try to make this jumping back and forth possible, to quickly get into the application.

[Claudia Schütze]
And I think that is our challenge anyway. We have identified this for many, many years: how can we integrate the application more into the learning context, even if it is only small and selective and exemplary at first. Perhaps the other formulation is how learning can be integrated into the application context, which is perhaps more correct and more important.

And yet, I believe that we can also bring the application context into the learning opportunities that we provide by, firstly, designing scenarios that are really close to practice, by incorporating sessions where you can transfer what you have learned into real-life applications and try it out. So, in software, it means that I might design the first masks in the way that I was shown to be optimal in the training. And if I go out there, so to speak, immediately have a different working environment, in inverted commas, in the software, with which I can try to implement what I have just learned, for example, that would be one of my ideas.

[Johannes Starke]
And on that very point, so I know the criticism of the seemingly linear approach that we are outlining here. And as I said, I am not entirely happy with it myself. We are also experimenting, we recently sketched out a kind of sea chart with different islands that you can also head for in different ways and take things with you.

These are all things we are trying out to get away from this apparent linearity. Of course, this also makes it more complicated to implement.

[Claudia Schütze]
Definitely makes it more complicated in the realization and also in the mediation of the learner journey. But maybe it's easier for people, for a group of people, to accept it because there is this freedom. To say, I can turn right, I can turn left, but I won't lose sight of my goal because of that.

And because you now say nautical chart, well actually, I have also been looking into the topic of learning paths a bit more. This is also terminology that comes up when you look at learner journeys. And in fact, these learning paths are often illustrated in the school context, for example, with learning maps.

So I think that comes pretty close to your idea with this map, for example. I think we can do some more research on that and maybe also see what good things are being used there, for example.

[Claudia Schütze]
Good, Johannes.

Then I would say that, at least in my opinion, we have made a good first outline of the topic of Lerner-Journey. Is there anything else you would like or need to add before we end this episode?

[Johannes Starke]
Maybe just a summary appeal. Use the ideas, the questions that arise when you are working out a learning journey, also with the tool that we have shared with you, to think as much as possible about what happens in learning, with learning and after learning, what happens in your daily work. Don't think of learning as an island that is over at some point, but integrate daily learning into your work.

[Claudia Schütze]
Great, that was a perfect closing comment, Johannes. Then I would like to thank you very much for being here. Another somewhat longer episode.

We hope that there were many, many, many valuable suggestions and thoughts for you. If you want to discuss this with us, feel free to contact us on social media. On Mastodon you can discuss and interact with our podcast.

And for today, I'd like to thank Johannes for his thoughts and ideas on the design and development of learning journeys. Thank you very much for today.

[Johannes Starke]
Thank you.

[Claudia Schütze]
Bye. Oh yes, have you subscribed to us yet? You can do that wherever you prefer to listen to your podcasts.

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