LERNLUST #35 // On Learning and Forgetting

Do you know the feeling? You read an article, learn vocabulary or simply want to tell a joke you heard recently, and shortly thereafter you have difficulty remembering the content.

So why should our learners fare any differently in the corporate learning context? Training courses are often attended that extend over one or even several days, but it is still far too rare for the focus to be seriously placed on how what has been learned remains in the minds of the learners in the long term if content is not put into practice immediately after the learning event. And even if it is, it is still one of the more difficult tasks.

That is why I (Katharina Vögl-Duschek) have examined this question with great curiosity and conducted an experiment with around 120 prospective auditors as part of my dissertation.

The question was: Do learners achieve better learning and transfer success with the use of memory boosters?

And the answer is short and sweet: Yes!
Compared to the control group, the increase in results was as high as 25%. This was a particularly encouraging result, especially since the feedback from the students was also very positive.

In the podcast, we, Susanne Dube and Katharina Vögl-Duschek, talk about this topic in more detail. One of the many questions that came up was what the concept looked like in detail and in which areas it is particularly applicable. Susanne says she feels like thinking further here, don't you?

Shownotes

Host:
Susanne Dube, Teamlead Learning // LinkedIn
Mastodon: @susanne_bbg@norden.social

Guest:
Katharina Vögl-Duschek, Senior Learning Consultant // LinkedIn 

Podcasts
Vergesst das Vergessen Ihr Talente - Mit Axel Lindhorst & Susanne Dube: 

And for those who want to hear more about SAP:
Klaus Kräft und Lisa Müller-Gebühr mit Susanne Dube
Brigitte Hanke mit Claudia Schütze

Article
Lernen im Job: Wie die Lernkurve steil ansteigt

You can also find all episodes of our LERNLUST podcast at:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | Deezer

LernLust, the podcast for everything to do with corporate learning. We are Susanne Dube and Claudia Schütze and we are Learning Consultants at tts. It's great to have you with us today.

[Susanne Dube]
That means you will turn every learner into a talent. I mean, that's a whole dissertation. How many pages does it have?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, actually 270.

[Susanne Dube]
270 pages, then you can talk about it. There must be a bit more to it.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
How long do I do them? Oh dear, they're 20-30 minutes. Isn't that too long after all?

[Susanne Dube]
I still remember the time when we did paper tests. When I started as a trainer. We had paper tests with open and closed questions.
It was really time-consuming. I always feel sorry for teachers.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
That you could also collect the mind maps and turn it into a bit of a competition. So you could go a bit in the direction of gamification.

[Susanne Dube]
I remember talking to my professor about my thesis on blended learning. He said it was a dissertation topic – I made it my job instead. 
Now I meet Katharina Vögl-Duschek, who has taken the scientific route. Her topic goes right to the heart of learning, a recurring theme in the Lernlust podcast. I remember a conversation with Axel Lindhorst about it. 
Her work is called On Learning and Forgetting. Terms such as memory booster and learning transfer support model are the focus – I'm excited!

[Susanne Dube]
Hello Katharina, welcome to our Lernlust sofa today.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Good morning, dear Susanne. I'm very happy to be here too.

[Susanne Dube]
It's great to have you here! Today we're going to talk about a topic that has been on my mind for a long time. You told me that you listened to my podcast with Axel, which was about the forgetting curve. At the time, I thought I had closed the topic with that – but then you came along and filled a gap.
At the time, we quickly moved on from forgetting to talents. So what gap did you fill? Why are we talking today? Tell me!

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Okay, Susanne, I'll give a brief summary – for those who didn't listen to the podcast back then. 
It was about the forgetting curve according to Ebbinghaus, which is often criticized because it examines meaningless syllables. In contrast to this was the idea that talents often simply have a high level of interest in a topic and therefore deal with it more intensively. 
My gap was exactly this point: after the training, we can create targeted incentives that encourage repeated engagement with the topic. This way, we offer learning opportunities that lead learners back to the topic again and again – and perhaps even pave the way to true talent.

[Susanne Dube]
That means you will turn every learner into a talent.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
That's the beautiful fantasy.

[Susanne Dube]
So you looked at how we retain what we have learned for longer. In your work, you have examined this in detail. What exactly did you test, how did you proceed, and what was your goal?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, the basic idea was that learners often have little time or few opportunities to apply what they have learned in practice after training. Therefore, the work was about how to deal with the topic later in order to anchor the knowledge in the long term.

[Susanne Dube]
Exactly, similar to a large SAP rollout: the training takes place, but the system is often not available to learners until three to four months later.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, for example with intensive onboarding courses: learners take in a lot of topics over the course of a week, but don't apply them until much later. The knowledge often quickly fades away. I wanted to counteract this with this system and test whether the theory really works in practice.

[Susanne Dube]
And now I'm really curious: how did you test it? What were the results?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
I'll briefly explain what I meant by memory booster. These are small digital learning units that are made available to learners at certain intervals after training to consolidate what they have learned. 
Before the system was introduced, there were many questions. One of the main questions was how to design these memory boosters in terms of content – there are many possibilities, and I have used various theories. 
Another issue was the intervals at which learners should receive the units. According to the Ebbinghaus forgetting curve, knowledge quickly loses its effect at the beginning, which is why it is important to use repetition early on. Later on, this can then be done at longer intervals.

[Susanne Dube]
This shows that it makes sense to take action directly after a training session to help learners retain knowledge in the long term. The hope is that they have understood the training and that the knowledge really is in their heads. After all, you can only forget something that you have memorized. 
What knowledge have you dealt with? I believe that people remember things better when they do them, rather than just learning them by heart.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly. There are always two components: on the one hand, declarative knowledge, i.e. clear factual knowledge, which mainly comprises specialist knowledge. On the other hand, however, there is also procedural knowledge, especially in auditing, where not only knowledge is required, but also the ability to carry out audits. These practical skills require a lot of practice, which I took into account in my work. My goal was to create a balance between pure factual knowledge and the practical training that is necessary.

[Susanne Dube]
I find it exciting that you say that for two reasons. For one thing, I wonder what exactly procedural knowledge is in an audit – I can't really imagine that right now.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Procedural knowledge refers to the fact that many steps are necessary in an audit to carry out an audit, such as that of fixed assets. First, you have to pull an asset history sheet from SAP, transfer it to Excel, evaluate it and analyze it. This shows that it is not only about theoretical knowledge of fixed assets, but also about the practical steps required for the actual audit.

[Susanne Dube]
Yes, the comparison with SAP training is actually a good one, especially since you just mentioned SAP. It's interesting that you mention both – not only factual knowledge but also practical application. So your topic was retaining and combining both.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly. What became particularly clear is how important the steps are that lead to the ability to actually apply what has been learned. The first step is to reduce forgetting after further training and to promote retention. Then comes the step of putting the knowledge into practice. It quickly becomes clear that these intermediate steps are necessary to be able to actually apply what has been learned.

[Susanne Dube]
I imagine that our colleagues at tts say, they have a performance support system because people forget a lot and therefore offer on-site help. How does your approach differ from this? What have you done or what do you suggest to help people remember things better?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, exactly. The learning units were small, digital web-based training courses, three in all, that increased in difficulty. The first Memory Booster consisted of simple tasks such as multiple-choice and single-choice questions, as well as true or false answers. The idea behind this was to provide an easy introduction after the theory – in other words, short, concise tasks that encourage the learner to think about the right answer without having to be immediately and intensively active.

[Susanne Dube]
A reminder is kind of a good thing, right?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, it was a quick reminder where the learner just had to click a button and say whether the answer was right or wrong. It would be ideal if the learners also knew that they could consult the course materials for help. The idea behind this was that they might feel annoyed and feel the need to check to understand it better.

[Susanne Dube]
So it wasn't a test, but rather an opportunity, as we often say: a quiz is not about checking people out, but about getting them to look at the topic again and engage with it more deeply.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, that was the purpose. The second Memory Booster was a bit more open, for example, the learners had to fill in cloze texts or provide free text answers. There was also an exercise in Excel, where they first downloaded the Excel document and then filled it in. This phased approach proved to be very effective, which was also confirmed by the learners' feedback. They said that the first, rather simple booster was good and the second one was a reasonable increase. If the second booster had been open immediately, it might have been off-putting.

[Susanne Dube]
How did you evaluate that? I can imagine that it was quite time-consuming.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
The evaluation was done automatically by the LMS. I created it in Articulate RISE, and the system analyzed the results directly. The learners received immediate feedback, which was an important point. We know that feedback plays a crucial role in independent learning to prevent incorrect knowledge from taking hold.

[Susanne Dube]
That's an exciting point! But before we talk about the feedback, I'd like to take a step back again. I think there is a three-step process behind your approach. What was the third step?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
The third step was then, after the first two rather closed and open tasks, a little later, after about eight weeks. Here the learners were to create a mind map. The task was to gather all knowledge on the topic – in this case, fixed assets – and present it in a large mind map. They were asked to include not only what they had learned in the course, but also the content of the two previous Memory Boosters. The idea was that this mind map should also serve as a tool for the learners to explain to a new colleague who is to take over the topic of fixed asset verification what they had learned.

[Susanne Dube]
It's really exciting when you look at the three steps together – they really build on each other, which I think was your goal too. At the beginning, it's very simple and accessible: you create a few multiple-choice questions. Then it gets a bit more challenging because you have to deal with the topic more – there are questions where you have to write something and evaluate it. In the third step, it's less about control and more about putting your knowledge into a structure, in the form of a mind map. A clear three-step structure. You also mentioned feedback earlier...

[Susanne Dube]
Feedback is of course very important, but I think there are a few other aspects that are also crucial to making these three steps work well.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Right, exactly. We have already mentioned feedback, but perhaps we should summarize it again: Particularly in the first two Memory Boosters, the students received feedback and sample solutions to ensure that they did not memorize anything incorrectly. It was different with the mind map, as you said, Susanne – there was no right or wrong here. The students knew that in advance, and it was more a matter of them handing in the mind map or keeping it for themselves as learning material and continuing to work on it.
One interesting aspect that came from the learners was the desire to collect the mind maps and turn them into a small competition. They found the idea of presenting the best mind maps in the next course year exciting, which could be gamified to make the whole thing even more motivating.

[Susanne Dube]
Do you think the competition helped or was it more about the fact that it was just fun?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, exactly. It was just a great change for the students and really something different. They often mentioned that in the subsequent interviews – an alternative learning method that was actually very useful and helpful for many of them.

[Susanne Dube]
Okay, that's interesting. Now someone might say that it's relatively simple – three practice phases after the training and then it works. Is it really that simple or are there stumbling blocks that should be considered? I mean, it's become a whole dissertation. How many pages does it have?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, actually 270.

[Susanne Dube]
So 270 pages, then you can talk about it. There must be a bit more to it than that.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Right, there are of course some hurdles that have to be taken into account in practice, as in my research. I had about 120 participants, but only a response rate of 70%. Many learners volunteered to take part, but I had to help out with reminder e-mails to make sure that the memory boosts were made in the allotted time frame. An important hurdle is that the whole thing has to be embedded in a good organizational context and that time resources have to be made available for both the training and the practice phases. Otherwise, there is a risk that learners will not implement it in their free time.
Another issue is IT systems. Do you have an LMS, an LXP or nothing at all? Here, too, you can remedy the situation by sending the memory boosts by email. But even then, as a lecturer, you have to stay on top of things and make sure that you send the exercises in the right time frame.

[Susanne Dube]
That's a very good question. The time required by learners did indeed vary depending on the type of memory booster. The first two memory boosts I used only took about 10-15 minutes each. The third step, creating the mind map, was then significantly more time-consuming and took about 30-45 minutes. In total, learners should plan about 1-1.5 hours for all memory boosts.
Of course, this can be a challenge in companies, especially when employees are short on time. That is why it is important to integrate the learning process well into the daily work routine and to make it clear to learners that these exercises are a useful tool for retaining knowledge in the long term, rather than forgetting it again.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
That depends, of course, on the content of the original training, but roughly speaking, learners spent about 30 minutes on each booster.

[Susanne Dube]
And that was spread over a period of...?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
About eight weeks.

[Susanne Dube]
Yes, exactly. The intervals were not evenly distributed. The first Memory Booster came directly after the training, the second then after four weeks and the third after eight weeks. So there was a steady increase in the time intervals.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
The time setting is derived from the theory that recommends that larger intervals between practice sessions promote cognitive activation. However, the danger is that too long intervals could deter learners because the tasks then become too difficult.

[Susanne Dube]
It's like a garden when you come back after the long winter season and wonder where you put the tools. After five years you know, but in the first year it's still difficult.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, it depends on the point in time when I can say for sure that I am applying it in practice. If it is closer to the time, the eight-week period can be shortened. If the interval is longer, a fourth memory booster might be useful. So it depends on the individual case.

[Susanne Dube]
We have now talked about the learning boosters, the structure with the three stations and important points to be considered. What I would like to know is whether it really helped. Did people remember things better?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, the results were actually quite exciting. I had three groups: a control group and two groups with different types of memory boosters – one with only knowledge questions and the other with knowledge questions and application tasks. The results showed a significant difference between the two booster groups and the control group. When looking at learning success and learning transfer, there were significant differences, with the group that had both knowledge questions and application tasks performing best.

[Susanne Dube]
Exactly, this confirms what I said at the beginning: if you really want to learn something well, you should be active. Not only are the eyes and ears stimulating for the brain, but the hands are also moving. This is holistic learning that involves the whole body.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, that's important to emphasize. What we learn in the training event is only half the battle. We have to repeat this exercise later, whether it's through practical application or through Memory Booster. A one-time exercise is often not enough to acquire procedural knowledge – it needs more repetition and consolidation.

[Susanne Dube]
Yes, exactly. Learning takes time, and instead of continuous learning, I developed an approach in which learning takes place in intervals. This way, you can repeat again and again and actually achieve the desired learning success. I summarized the whole thing in what is known as the learning transfer support model. However, the model encompasses more than just these interval repetitions.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, that was the aim of my work: to derive a learning transfer support model that presents my most important findings in an abstract way. The focus was on the content-related framework conditions that we have already discussed with the three memory boosters. The whole thing is embedded in a time frame, with increasing intervals. In addition, the model also includes organizational and technical framework conditions that need to be checked in every company. The aim is to find out how the whole thing can be embedded and ideally implemented in an automated way.

[Susanne Dube]
Organizational framework conditions are often difficult to implement because many learners say that they don't have time or find it difficult to find peace and quiet. What are the necessary conditions for implementing this well?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
A central topic for me is the time resource. As you said, a learning opportunity is often not used sufficiently if no time is planned for it. It is therefore important to give learners time to study and complete the Memory Booster.

[Susanne Dube]
Then I have a follow-up question. You said earlier that the learning boosters take about half an hour, right?
That means three times half an hour. I often hear that people can't concentrate for more than ten minutes or that videos should only be five minutes long because otherwise they won't be watched. Everything is designed to keep it as short as possible. Do you think that these boosters could be shorter or is there a reason why they should last about half an hour? Would you make a recommendation?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, that's an interesting question, Susanne. I also thought about that a lot during the design process – how long should they be, and oh dear, 20 to 30 minutes, isn't that too long? I think there are many aspects to this. For example, how long do web-based training courses usually take in a company? In many industries, we even have two-hour WBTs where...

[Susanne Dube]
Oh, that hurts me right now.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, and you could actually assume the usual longer web-based training and say that 20 to 30 minutes is relatively short. Interestingly, my qualitative interviews revealed that learners who had the time to spare found longer sessions of 20 to 30 minutes more enjoyable than shorter ones. They didn't feel rushed, were able to get into the topic better and appreciated the fact that it was embedded in a story. So they didn't find it negative, but if you want to make it shorter, that's of course also possible. In my research, I made it more detailed to reflect different scenarios. But it would also be conceivable to make the memory boosters shorter, for example, 10 to 15 minutes per topic. The challenge is to find a balance between meaningful depth and the time available.

[Susanne Dube]
That is an interesting point. In fact, the colleagues were able to use the materials from the training, which definitely had a positive influence. However, in terms of preparation for the booster sessions, they were not always explicitly prepared. Many just went into the boosters spontaneously, as the material from the previous training modules was integrated into the booster sessions. This allowed learners to more easily re-enter the topic without the need for formal preparation. It was more of a seamless continuation, which was supported by the reuse of material.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, that surprised me too, but in a positive way. It shows that learners actually appreciate not being rushed through tasks all the time. This feedback is really valuable, especially when you address the topic of learning nuggets and the tendency to make everything as short and efficient as possible. Of course, it is important to respect the learners' time, but at the same time, this feedback shows that it is also good to have more time for more intensive engagement with topics. The awareness that learning takes time and that one should deal with certain aspects more intensively is an important and positive insight.

[Susanne Dube]
This is truly a wonderful message that I want to promote from the bottom of my heart.

[Susanne Dube]
Exactly, one point stands out: were there about 100 people who accompanied you?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
120, to be precise.

[Susanne Dube]
120 learners that you accompanied in the study – did they know that it was a study? Do you think that this had an influence on the result and their engagement with the topic?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes and no. They knew that it was an evaluation of a further training program, but not that the pre- and post-tests were directly related to the memory boosters. It was presented as a general evaluation in which their help was requested. The tests were anonymous and without consequences. Therefore, I don't think that it had an influence on their participation.

[Susanne Dube]
Okay, so you did a test at the beginning and then a post-test afterwards. Both were in the form of multiple-choice questions to test knowledge and learning success?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
No, they were mostly open-ended questions because I wanted to avoid having to guess the answers with multiple-choice questions, which could distort the results. This way, I could ensure that the knowledge was really being accessed.

[Susanne Dube]
Yes, it really was a lot of work. I still remember the time when we used paper tests with open and closed questions. That was really tedious. Teachers have my full sympathy!

[Susanne Dube]
The model is really exciting. It is based on research, but it also contains a lot of material that is interesting for practitioners like me who have been in the field for years. How can I transfer this into my field of work? Can I simply implement it 1:1 or what are you doing with it now? Now that you have the model.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
I don't think it would take a huge amount of effort to test it in different sectors. In the interviews, the apprentices mentioned many possible areas of application, for example in IT training or for compliance topics. The model is versatile and can be used in many areas, including first-aid courses, where it could help to reinforce memories, as it could save lives. It is important to check the technical and organizational conditions on site. Then the model can be implemented well in different areas.

[Susanne Dube]
Interesting. One more aspect that occurs to me: you gave an example that stuck in my mind. It's not just about using the learning boosters, but also about ensuring that the learning environment corresponds to the subsequent application. If someone is supposed to work at the workbench, the training should ideally take place there, and the learning boosters should also be used in this environment. Did I understand that correctly?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Exactly, that is the goal of further training: the learning conditions should correspond to the real world of work. If it is possible to learn directly at the workbench and acquire the procedural knowledge there, that is the ideal case. The same applies to the Memory Boosters: if the instruction is to go to the workbench and go through the steps again, that's how it can be implemented.

[Susanne Dube]
I found it very exciting in any case and I'm curious to try it out. However, for us consultants, it also means convincing the managers that it is important and useful. Of course, it helps that your research, whether small or large, supports the whole thing.

[Susanne Dube]
Would you like to give us, those who are active in the world of learning, a motto, a tip or a mindset that will help us to make such approaches a success and offer our learners something good?

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Yes, that's a good question, Susanne, a big word at the end. My main finding is that a single learning opportunity is often not enough. The trend towards blended learning helps us to spread the acquisition of knowledge over several events and to support it with different learning tasks. We have to be aware that while the learning objectives of a one-off seminar can be achieved, learning must be continued and repeated to be effective in the long term.

[Susanne Dube]
Learners continue to learn in practice – learning never stops. What I find exciting about blended learning is that it is not just a mix of learning methods, but a meaningful arrangement of these methods. In this case, the learning boosters would fit in well by offering a low-threshold introduction, then becoming more complex and finally moving into practice to promote the transition to the world of work.

[Susanne Dube]
It's exciting, really very exciting. I'd love to talk to you more about it, but I think that's enough for now. We'll definitely be hearing a lot more from you, and maybe one or other of our clients will be lucky enough to have you on a project. Then you can discuss it at length. 
For today, I say a huge thank you. It was a lot of fun talking to you. I hope you enjoyed it too.

[Katharina Vögl-Duschek]
Thank you, Susanne. It was a lot of fun to sit on the couch with you, so to speak.

[Susanne Dube]
Exactly, then I'll say goodbye for now. If you, dear listeners, still have questions or anything like that, I'll tell you right after where you can find us. Feel free to contact Katharina with questions on the topic. 
We look forward to it. See you next time. Bye!

 

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